Aegis
Cult Leader
Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 10, 2022 15:03:17 GMT
Wait this just popped up lmao. If we're having productive conversation, surely that means I've made way more than just 1 productive post, right? Are you pushing me for any other reason bar my discard Aegis? Woah way to break his ankles XD Yea see its really easy to say that I am wrong when I can't respond. So leave it at neutral and push elsewhere seeing as this was your goal. |
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Post by silver on Jul 10, 2022 15:05:15 GMT
Well, lets have a break for a minute.
Vote : Esh
What did you think about this whole debacle?
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Post by Daisy on Jul 10, 2022 15:07:03 GMT
If two people are just arguing around in circles, repeating all the same points, digging their heels in and getting more riled up, I wouldn't exactly call that a constructive conversation. Is this a warning or just a comment on the general game state? Cause I defo need to push that Aegis contradiction when I can but if you'd rather we hold off we can hold off. |
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Aegis
Cult Leader
Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 10, 2022 15:17:13 GMT
If two people are just arguing around in circles, repeating all the same points, digging their heels in and getting more riled up, I wouldn't exactly call that a constructive conversation. Is this a warning or just a comment on the general game state? Cause I defo need to push that Aegis contradiction when I can but if you'd rather we hold off we can hold off. Comment and polite request that I am taking as law. |
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Post by Lucifer on Jul 10, 2022 15:28:56 GMT
Any actual warnings will happen in pms, I just wanna try and maintain cool vibes
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Post by Lucifer on Jul 10, 2022 15:47:50 GMT
ashera has let me know that they probably won't be able to post for the rest of today and tomorrow.
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Post by Daisy on Jul 10, 2022 16:03:12 GMT
Any actual warnings will happen in pms, I just wanna try and maintain cool vibesAwesome, thanks. I, too, wanna maintain cool vibes because they are both cool and vibes :3 But anyways that means we can get back to this: I have already said the one post you made that was productive (the long one on page 3, as of the time of Silver's original claim I am arguing against). And I'm not at liberty to speak on the matter of alignment inductiveness as Silver's defense of you and the role discard are my main sources of evidence, especially with majorly insufficient counter-wagon arguments formed. So you don't think any of my defences are worth entertaining/have been productive for discussion and the game as a whole? 7) Anyone can speak. I just can as well. So if the problem is no one is speaking apart from us and Daisy, what is the issue? We are having productive convocation Wait this just popped up lmao. If we're having productive conversation, surely that means I've made way more than just 1 productive post, right? Are you pushing me for any other reason bar my discard Aegis? I'm a bit confused here Aegis, can you answer these questions for me? 1) Have I been giving productive contributions? You stated in one post that I'd only given one productive post the whole day, but then in the other you say that the whole conversation/convocation (idk what the second word means lmao) has been productive, so I'm struggling to follow. 2) As the last couple pages have been messy, I'd like to clarify if you're pushing me for any other reasons bar just my discard. And after I have my answers that should be it wrt that whole debacle from my end. I wanna wait until I have my answers for my Aegis read, but I'm unsure on Leah right now. I mean don't get me wrong I love the fact someone is townreading and defending me whilst I'm the big wagon of the day so far, but idk I feel very hyperaware of possible pocketing so trying to make sure I don't get too comfy. |
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Post by Elements on Jul 10, 2022 16:08:51 GMT
I'm here!
I ain't read nufink yet
Probably won't properly until tomorrow evening
Please don't prod me
[/Vote] Elements [vote]
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Post by Lucifer on Jul 10, 2022 16:22:09 GMT
silver has informed me that they won't be able to post for the rest of the day.
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Aegis
Cult Leader
Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 10, 2022 16:23:56 GMT
I'm a bit confused here Aegis, can you answer these questions for me? No. I am not going to go into the reasons as to why I will not respond further on my wagon on you ftm, since that is a conversation between me and the mod, but for the reasons of Lucifer's post I do not wish to reply, though note I have the capacity to easily. Its a game health question at this point. Also please just remember to use people's names on the site. No other name. So please edit if Lucifer allows. |
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Post by Elements on Jul 10, 2022 16:25:30 GMT
Best post that I've read so far I conjure the Umbrellements. |
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Post by Elements on Jul 10, 2022 16:29:36 GMT
I'm the big wagon of the day so far I'm sure there's a very good reason to vote you then  [\b]Vote: Daisy[vote] |
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Aegis
Cult Leader
Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 10, 2022 16:36:57 GMT
I will say that until otherwise convinced, voting for @demesne King or @daisy are the only two directions I intend to go. And by that I mean proper convincing, not "these are the wagons we have chosen, follow my child". I will explain why when I give the full read list
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Post by Daisy on Jul 10, 2022 16:59:32 GMT
I'm a bit confused here Aegis, can you answer these questions for me? No. I am not going to go into the reasons as to why I will not respond further on my wagon on you ftm, since that is a conversation between me and the mod, but for the reasons of Lucifer's post I do not wish to reply, though note I have the capacity to easily. Its a game health question at this point. How would following that line of questioning put the game health at question? I'll leave it cause you said ftm, so hopefully I'll have an answer soon. But I will get my answers :3 Also please just remember to use people's names on the site. No other name. So please edit if Lucifer allows. Oh my b, is there a rule against this? I'll avoid doing it from now on, if anyone wants names removed just lemme know. Lucifer would editing posts to change people's names to their forum ones if they're uncomfy with other names being in the post be allowed or not? |
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Post by Lucifer on Jul 10, 2022 17:37:46 GMT
If anyone would like any posts edited, they can pm me about it. And referring to people's usernames is probably best for clarity anyways as different people have different levels of familiarity with other players. But any post editing will be done by mods. Rule 11 is like, the rule I'm least likely to change lol.
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Post by Nick G on Jul 10, 2022 17:59:11 GMT
Well, a lot has definitely happened since my last post, so I’ll try to cover as much as I can. As I’m tied to tablet/mobile for this forum game, I’ll likely be doing shorter posts and may reference other posts rather than trying to fit multiple quotes into a single response. Apologies if I cover something which has already been covered by someone else. - Molly/silver, the bodyguard in the Greater Idea role list is not the variant which kills the attacking player, it simply dies in place of the intended victim. Therefore this role is never going to kill an anti-Town player. As I mentioned in my original discard analysis, the possibility for Town killing roles, multiple anti-Town factions and third party roles, it is entirely possible for a Bodyguard to die saving an anti-Town role. While the 1-Shot Day Vigilante can mess up and kill a useful Town power role, it will at least survive to rectify its mistake. Therefore I regard the 1-Shot Vigilante discard as much more intriguing than the Bodyguard discard. (I’d discard Bodyguard when paired with the vast majority of other Town roles, potentially even VT or Negative Utility Town.) I can follow Silver’s reasoning for not liking the role, but it’s still a good Town role that’s been discarded,
- luke. I do usually analyse discards based on both the alignment and the power/usefulness of the specific role. I may read into them too much at times, given that it’s easily possible for players to get two ‘good’ roles, two ‘bad roles’, or two very similar roles, but I tend to have an information-based playstyle. Long posts and short posts are both great, so long as they have content. I personally veer towards longer posts, although this may change this game due to technology limitations. Claiming I think is very situational - it depends on the role, why people are pushing you, etc. I wouldn’t typically claim this early (or at least I wouldn’t make a serious/honest claim this early) unless absolutely forced to.
- Based on who Demesne King now appears to be (something I was not previously aware of), the Vigilante discard is perhaps less suspicious than I initially deemed it. (I’ll still keep an eye on it, but I’m a little less concerned. I don’t necessarily agree with discarding such a powerful role from the perspectives of “I wish I had it” and “I wish we had that in Town’s power set”, but I can accept why it may have been discarded.)
- I like Luke’s questions from a participation perspective. I’m not sure that, on their own, they are particularly alignment-indicative. The reads, however, I like. I’m slightly curious about how I’m listed as a scumread and then described as neutral, but I guess that’s that I’m potentially anti-Town because I haven’t done anything particularly indicative? (If so, that’s completely fair.)
- Unless Daisy was meaning that they didn’t they didn’t think the discards had been published yet, I don’t buy that they didn’t think the discards would be published. They’ve played Greater Idea before, and so far as I know the discards have always been published. (Even the CardWolf variation for the last forum game had discards published, even if they weren’t attributed to individuals.)
- olterior, as I previously stated, I don’t seem to have much luck with playing Werewolves in Greater Idea. I don’t object to playing anti-Town roles, but I prefer fun abilities or abilities that are guaranteed to be useful. (FBI Agent only matters if there is a Serial Killer in the game, which is not guaranteed, and does nothing to help identify any other anti-Town roles or factions.) I concede that I may well have picked something like the Alien Vanillaiser if I had been offered it.
- As before, I believe that Daisy would discard many Town power roles in favour of keeping a Vanilla Town role. However there is no guarantee that their other card was actually Vanilla Town. Based on past experience, I’m inclined not to automatically trust a Day 1 claim by Daisy that they’ve picked Vanilla Town in a Greater Idea-style game.
- Daisy I could, and might well have, picked Serial Killer over Werewolf FBI Agent. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how much you like surviving) for you, I wasn’t offered Serial Killer.
- Lucifer, the webpage with role PMs that you linked explicitly states that you can have Aliens and Replicants in the same setup. I agree that it is unusual, but thank you for the clarification that they are not present.
- Despite having read through a lot of the Aegis-Silver conflict on Daisy multiple times, I’m still not sure I have entirely followed it. What I will say is that Daisy has been contributing more than several other players, so having some posts with comparatively-little content isn’t a particular issue in my eyes. I may not completely trust Daisy, but that’s for other reasons.
- I appreciate that players have commitments outside the game, but I’d feel bad about pushing Daisy for low-content posts given the current level of interaction/contribution from Elements and Esh in particular.
- Esh has made two posts in this game, but one appears to have been a silly rather than serious accusation, and the other was simply a sad face icon. The discard is an anti-Town role, but as with myself, it cannot be ruled out that it was discarded in favour of a better anti-Town role (given the apparent comparative weakness of the Alien faction). Therefore, in the interest of adding momentum and hopefully stimulating some more engagement:
Vote: Esh
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Post by Lucifer on Jul 10, 2022 18:27:04 GMT
Votecount 1.2
With 11 alive it takes 6 votes to eliminate. Daisy - 3 (Aegis, Elements, Demesne King) Esh - 3 (Silver, Olterior, Nick G)
Demesne King - 1 (Daisy)
Not Voting - 4 (Ashera, Luke, Molly, Esh)
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Post by luke on Jul 10, 2022 18:28:47 GMT
- I’m slightly curious about how I’m listed as a scumread and then described as neutral, but I guess that’s that I’m potentially anti-Town because I haven’t done anything particularly indicative? (If so, that’s completely fair.)
I thought your tone was too neutral and you weren't really saying anything to stand out. You said you agreed with my reads - which ones? If you agree with my reads, why not vote for someone I suspect? |
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Post by Nick G on Jul 10, 2022 18:46:26 GMT
- I’m slightly curious about how I’m listed as a scumread and then described as neutral, but I guess that’s that I’m potentially anti-Town because I haven’t done anything particularly indicative? (If so, that’s completely fair.)
I thought your tone was too neutral and you weren't really saying anything to stand out. You said you agreed with my reads - which ones? If you agree with my reads, why not vote for someone I suspect? - That is completely fair. I just wanted to see if I was reading it correctly or whether there was a contradiction.
- I said I like your reads, I didn’t say that I necessarily agreed with them. It was more of a case of liking that you were willing to go out on a limb and give some reads. I agree that Silver’s aggressive-feeling defence of Daisy felt odd, and I hadn’t seen anything from Ol that seemed suspicious enough to merit some of the suspicion directed at them, so we do align slightly there.
- Esh was a player you hadn’t mentioned. The reason that they hadn’t been mentioned, I assume, is because they have contributed almost nothing so far. At this stage of the game, I’d like to simply push for activity so that I have more information to use later in the day. Esh already had 2 votes, so it’s more effective to add pressure there than place a single vote on someone else who I want to hear more from.
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Post by Elements on Jul 10, 2022 19:52:28 GMT
Vote: Esh
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Post by Lucifer on Jul 10, 2022 19:59:56 GMT
Esh is now L-2. If I can get just 2 more of you to vote then we can wrap up day 1 already =P
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Post by Nick G on Jul 10, 2022 21:44:03 GMT
Reverse the polarity!
In all seriousness, I do not like the concept of voting someone out this early in the game. I want to hear more from Esh, but I don’t want them exiled before they contribute, unless they fail to contribute for the vast majority of the dayphase. I particularly don’t like that Elements, who themselves has made almost no productive contribution, has been the one to push a low-activity wagon to L-2.
Given that I don’t want to risk a quick overnight exile when Esh is certainly not the only relatively quiet player…
Unvote: Esh
Vote: Elements
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Post by luke on Jul 10, 2022 21:50:14 GMT
In other forum games I've played on a different site, day phases lasted around a week usually. I'd like to wait a bit longer before eliminating someone.
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Post by Lucifer on Jul 10, 2022 21:53:12 GMT
But...but I thirst for blood... =[
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Aegis
Cult Leader
Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 10, 2022 22:07:12 GMT
Blessed are the patient
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Post by olterior on Jul 10, 2022 22:36:58 GMT
1) Umm...go from page 2 until the long post on page 3 and tell me one constructive comment they gave. They were almost all jokes or just comments that deny a form of assertion that I proved was constructive. Its fine to keep the push if you want, I just want the group to know your bias and the insufficient justification for it. For future evaluation. 2) This is pretty much the approach Daisy also used, so yea this means literally nothing as a comment. Also jeez its one day. ONE DAY. 3) I agree, but that assumes intent. It was definitely a mistake though, as I have pointed out like yourself. I concur that Daisy was basically missing page 2, but when they responded to Lukes questions (aka actually interacting again) it was back to being constructive. They don't copy-paste others opinions like Molly, Ashera and Luke; that's why I favor them right now. Yes it's been one day, but I can still read the one days worth of content. If I was in Ollies position as Town I would be hyper analysing myself trying to find reasons why I'm mafia and my scum read on them is bs. The fact they didn't and chose to ignore me makes me feel like they can't rebuttal it well, because they're scum. It may assume intent, but I'm not talking about the "mistake" we pointed out. Think about how a mafia would read the discards, they would look for everyone that has good roles that isn't in their group and focus on them. Daisy should've been the instinct (unless Daisy is mafia but that's unlikely based on the size of the Daisy wagon as well as how I read their actual content), but Daisy wasn't Ollies instinct it was King. That's strange to me, hence the push. Hope that helps Im currwntly just reading through and only got up to here to respond, but: I personally dont like to spew all the reasons i must definitely be town in response to a push because ive found im not that good at it & also it tends to just put unnecessary focus on me. Wrt Daisy, this feels like her standard town vibing D1 with all votijg on and offs, as well as the discard, which i dont want wanna push at until D2 somewhat because its both sus yet in character, and potentially means she just has a cool town power that could ouch to get rid of. Saying that, id like to remind myself and others that Daisy said she didnt think discards would be published and so id also believe she just has VT lmao Either way, not a vote for me to make today i think |
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Post by olterior on Jul 10, 2022 22:49:50 GMT
I have now finished reading through, and given that the day phases last until Friday id like for Esh to not got bonked super quick based on their couple of low content memes in what hasnt even been a third of a day phase
By this i mean i wont be unvoting them, but big squints at anyone who does hammer that so quick (tho i assume that doesnt need saying hehe)
Otherwise i stick by my “nah daisys prolly fine” vibe in my last post; vibes are good
Wrt to names/ usernames: i realise peeps have been using my real name so for clarity since it was mentioned, feel free to refer to me as Olterior/ Ollie/ Ol as those are all names that i have
(Also, god mobile formatting is rough imma have to sit down and learn whatever html this site uses just so i can be consistent with my desktop “bolding the key points” in the future)
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Aegis
Cult Leader
Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 10, 2022 23:23:55 GMT
Just as an update to where I am at for cross-examination, every player bar 1 on my reads list has gone down. So I'm pretty sure I have a basis to suspect almost the entire lobby.
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Post by Lucifer on Jul 10, 2022 23:28:00 GMT
I mean, technically there's no guarantee that anybody picked a town role... *sips tea*
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Aegis
Cult Leader
Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2022 0:23:56 GMT
Before I went to sleep, I wanted to give out my reads list to give you all an indication of the lie of the land and so that I don't have to rewrite this thing I was fixated on when I see that people have posted more nonsense XD. So....:
Reads list:
Luke - I will start with the only player that has gone up on my tier list. The reason for this is based on the post regarding associatives and their reads. Up until now, I haven’t experienced in forum mafia a moment like that, where a player just legitimately made me applaud behind my screen. I hadn’t even thought of the associatives claim, the reads were also very drastic and helpful for evaluation, while the scum reads particularly had little snippets that were enough to understand their justification while still being concise. However, there is obviously the question as to how they got this info. That is my only doubt. Overall, while it is definitely early, I trust them the most (hard town)
Nick - Now they didn’t do too much to go down a lot, but Nick’s style of not really convincing so much as just saying what they think does not rub me the right way this game. It feels more aggressive and expects other people to come to you rather than trying to unite a pretty fragmented town to a clear read. I also haven’t managed to read their massive block post, but mainly due to the very bad formatting. What I did read however didn’t really help me to think they were convincing so much as reacting (slightly town)
Ashera - Can’t say a lot bad about a player that got mod confirmed to not be able to talk for a bit, but their one productive thing being a town read rather than a push doesn’t really help, so they inch downwards (near to neutral)
Molly - I really didn’t like the lack of commitment to a position on anyone in tandem with the initial defence of their discard as if they need to explain that bit. Their correction didn’t completely change the main issue, further cementing my disdain, as they didn’t properly pick a person (just made three basic groups of judgements), before not posting anymore (midway between neutral and solid scum).
Esh - It’s just kinda a really bad thing for me when you make posts to tell people you can talk but don’t tell us you will be busy and then the one liners you do post are just memes and no justification votes. The reason why I am holding them above Elements however is how everyone is hogging them specifically and love redirecting it onto them. Which makes me think they might be town. I’m just saying now, I am never voting for Esh today unless they incriminate themselves for precisely this reason (solid scum - 2 inches)
Elements - I dislike the vote onto Esh for the reasons Nick specified (so see that). That and no posting is grounds to pop down to scum ranking until you say something that matters more (solid scum)
Olterior - Olterior and Silver’s primary reason for being dragged up this high are their insistence on protecting Daisy with insufficient reasoning, making me think the trio is a team. Olterior’s post on reasoning for not wanting to vote Daisy was flawed as 1) using an oxymoron saying it is both weird and makes sense is just asking for us to not understand and 2) I hate the discard justification to protect Daisy and King as it is an easy cop out and I have argued why statistically it is not as valid as it should be to make the claim (see Daisy and King reads). That and the decision to vote Esh of all people was also explained before to be poor (just under hard scum).
Silver - Given a mountain of evidence for their defence of Daisy to be insufficient and very biased. The fact they also flipped onto Esh is bad, though not as bad. The main thing though that puts them above Olterior is how hard they defended Daisy and how frustrated they got defending them, which~ I’m~ surprised~ Daisy~ didn’t~ comment~ on~. Also they sus read me more for what felt like spite (just over hard scum).
Demesne King - Your one post actually made sus reading you so much easier as you admitted you would discard a good town role for VT. Long story short, me use maths probability theorem to decide that if there are too few town roles that the player would pick over what they discarded, then they prob would have double power role of significance for town (given the risk of discarding it in terms of explaining). However, with the admission of VT as valid discards, this now tips the number of preferred town cards to an amount that now NO LONGER MAKES IT A RED HERRING. Which now puts Demesne King in an awkward position where they now must reveal their role to avoid either 1) accepting they would prefer VT over discard and so be killed by town or 2) denying the claim and dying to mafia as, if they do, THEY HAVE A REALLY GOOD TOWN POWER ROLE. I think they are bad, thus baiting out bad roles killing them. Note, not on the same team maybe as Daisy given the vote. And btw, the rest of your post is just claims that are purely game talk pointlessness or disproven by me or another player. But I can get into that later if wanted. (hellspawn)
Daisy - two seperate players are protecting you, your interesting approach to you being on the wagon that I really feel comes from anti-town you and the fact you are trying to separate yourself from the two of them all are what pulled you under. But now that I have the floor to explain why I sus read you currently, it really is no more than it would be for any other player in a forum greater idea game. Your discard was very suspicious, and it really seems like some players don’t want you to die. Maybe you are lover, who knows? But, the fact 2 players are protecting you rather than 1 means maybe you are mafia lover. Or perhaps just any anti-town role. (hellspawn)
My claim still stands about only voting King or Daisy unless proper convincing, but I will say that the first player that I think is definitely deliberately ignoring my own reads and just shoving them to one side or forcing me down a read I absolutely don’t want to follow will be the target of my power role. Seeing how most players in this game are scum ended (more than I have experienced before), I feel this threat is necessary. I can always just make sure one player definitely loses. (Evil but town sided laugh).
I can explain if people would wish parts explained. As before, need only ask. Also, this stuff is tiring to write, so note I did not explain everything I think in detail. Because it is equally important others ask the right questions to rebuke the claims.
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