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Post by luke on Jul 11, 2022 1:05:24 GMT
I have some thoughts regarding your latest post, Aegis. If I didn't mention someone it's not because we're paired, it's just that I didn't have anything to say about them.
Regarding your doubts - are you worried I'm informed (as in bussing a partner) or can you not see any thought process? If it's the latter, I didn't explain any reads since it was just initial feeling.
I've found Nick voting Esh then Elements (for putting Esh at E-2) slightly town as well.
I townread Molly at the moment, mostly for admitting earlier that their analysis at the time was just "I don't know". I feel that non-town folk would be more inclined to appear busy, rather than comfortable with being unsure.
I disagree here, Esh hasn't said enough to be read yet, let alone solid scum.
On the one hand I agree that the E-2 and the manner of it was weird, but I'm also sceptical of those who voted Esh only to slap Elements' hand away from E-2.
You're viewing these two players similarly. I think Silver is more suspicious. Olterior's reads seem quite natural and malleable so far, which makes me townread them. Silver on the other hand was quite sure about doubling down on townreading Daisy - at least to me it seems unwarranted.
Given Daisy's response to me implied that she did in fact take VT over Jack, I'm going to retract my scumread on her. This is also influenced by Olterior and Silver both townreading her, and Silver in particular gave me pocketing/white knighting vibes with the way in which she townread Daisy.
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Aegis
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2022 4:58:38 GMT
I have some thoughts regarding your latest post, Aegis. If I didn't mention someone it's not because we're paired, it's just that I didn't have anything to say about them....... Ok. This kinda provoked a lengthy response. So spoiler be necessary. I don't really know how to start with saying this so I guess I'll begin with some early general points. I would have appreciated you specifying whether you had intent to convince me of the reads you are arguing for or whether you were just showing off that you had them. For the sake of a good analysis, I will presuppose the former as there were some combative responses, but feel free to specify if not.
Second, just gonna say that for me I tend to use quotes and stuff like role discards/information as kinda a heavy crutch. I struggle with "faith claims" (stuff where there is more so a reliance on a gut feel than something tangible and quotable). So hopefully that clarifies on the stylistic difference between our reasoning. Now for covering each thing you said.
1) The reason why I am not taking a negative approach to it is precisely because I could see a thought process clearly. This is just an aside about the possibility that you have some info I don't that makes asserting that easier (e.g being in a bad faction). Because I thought it was a rather striking claim that I probably never would have thought of and for me that is kinda a big deal. Like if you scored so high on a maths paper that the teacher began to think you may have cheated, despite how you definitely did show your working really well.
2) I kinda didn't put much weight to that. Something I may repeat is that the politics of who to bus and when are hard to really evaluate. Some players may just genuinely not notice the state of the wagon whereas others may just be staking a claim to their perspective. I have some harsh opinions on the topic but suffice to say I found the act to be one I could find sympathy with.
3) Fine, they can admit that. But does that change the fact that by not giving a strong person to sus it makes reacting to optimal wagons easier and helps them not directly contribute to discussion in a meaningful manner? I'm not definitively asserting what I question, just a proposal. The second line I actually like the sound of, never thought about it that way, though I just remind you of the fact that people play different depending on the person. Finding a way to distinguish between stylistic differences and objective "mafia" and "town" perspectives is important.
4) The rule that players that are quiet just will be labelled under scummy is a precaution that is generally just done in forum mafia as far as I am aware, for the purposes of provoking that player to interact. I just kinda didn't give Ashera that treatment because mod confirmations of busyness, along with how Esh gave indications that they could speak yet didn't clarify to us that they weren't available to talk. Its the "barely speaking" thing that gives indication of a potentially more malicious form of lack of response. It's also just because otherwise talkative players are punished more, which shouldn't be the case given the nature of the game style.
5) Both skepticisms are equally valid, as I feel is noticing how players like Olterior wanted to vote for them a decent ways before we properly could assess their lack of posting.
6) I did say Silver was more suspicious, but to address primarily the claim you are making I personally find Olterior's responses to be too judgemental and baseless (constantly holding on to the flimsy rope that is 'vibes', I swear this is my least favourite word for anyone to say in mafia and especially forum mafia). Silver's on the other hand, is too aggressive with holding to their reads list and as early as the technicolored post they made on page 2 judged players for just simply disagreeing with them. You may notice the literary overlap, which is why I held them to similar standards. Both also have similar evidence for them protecting Daisy even early on, which I agree is unwarranted especially this early in the game where we have little reason to do so outside of role related stuff. Though I am happy to discuss further to gather up the evidence I have got on them.
7) This is the perfect example of a faith argument like what I talked about earlier. From where I stand, I saw two players unconditionally and irrationally protecting another player to indicate their scumminess through associative proxy, though your post on that topic does hold some merit to challenging this chain of logic. This is kinda another thing I just didn't think about (white knighting this early to buddy up with someone for late game) and honestly it definitely is plausible. I guess I just haven't really seen any of these players put that level of thought into scum games to actually think of stuff like that. It is definitely a very strong scum play that makes sense and is good to consider, I guess I just don't have faith in most player's capacities to think that hard when playing as scum as it feels like more of something I would do than they would do.
That covers every comment you made I think. Overall, I like the approach, though I also would like to see how the claims intertwine into a coherent story regarding game flow and suspicion (one claim amplifying another). Also, it made me genuinely consider how my weakness, being my kinda awful reading ability when playing as town, should be something to be solved though others rather than trying to get myself killed and/or town read to just sit there.
With that said then, I offer a proposition I don't think I have ever given anyone before now in the 2 years I've been playing this game. Call it me deliberately hopping into your pocket if you wish. At any point, if you wish for me to change my opinion on a person, I would like for you to present your case for their suspicion of guilt or towniness. I will take the single strongest piece of evidence/claim I have and present it in response to your statement (I'll make it obvious it is intended for you). If you can provide a logical rebuttal of which I cannot find any logical contradiction with (ergo, my only available rebuttal is an argument built around faith rather than evidence), then I will graciously accept and change my opinion to reflect yours. I may need a bit to kinda iron out the terms of the contract, but there is absolutely merit to following the beliefs of those you town read. And hey, if you continue to post in the persuasive and innovative way you do, I have no problem maintaining my read until roles become the main commodity. That is, if you accept these terms of course....
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Post by Demesne King on Jul 11, 2022 8:47:23 GMT
Golly-me-oh-my you all were active in my absence! I'm not going to waste time on the argument. Most likely TvT. Very unlikely scumtheater.
I was asked for my thoughts on olterior and why I voted Daisy over them. At the time I voted arbitrarily between the players I didn't have any reason not to as voting generates more useful discussion than not. Since then... I don't like any of olterior ;s reasons for reads. They have lots of strong reads based on very little. I should not be obvtown to anyone based on one short post unless you know me well. It's appearing to have opinions without the natural chain of logic behind them. Daisy is playing this very relaxed. Either they're town or scum playing the day without agency. Either way a continued vote for them will do little here. Thanks everyone who responded to me for your reads!
So far my most town reads are Silver and Aegis. I like how they've been analysing things (and I like Aegis' pfp). While I'm tempted to vote for someone now for the drama, there's no one I particularly feel like voting for right now. Are these reads based on the content of their analysis or just on the sheer volume of it? They are by far the most active players right now, and its hard not to eventually say something reasonable when that's the case. I'm asking for specifics basically. I'd say that I townread Aegis, Ashera, Molly and Olterior (and maybe you). You didn't ask me about scumreads but I'd say Daisy, Nick and Silver. Silver is openly townreading Daisy and I disagree, partly the Jack discard yeah but not only that. Nick just seems to be quite neutral so far, maybe this will change as we play. I'm wondering whether associatives are even a big thing in this game - there are 18 Mafia roles and 18 Werewolf roles out of 146 possible roles (155 if we are doing Replicants). So there might not even be an informed minority in this game. But my current scumreads aren't just based on associatives but more who I find individually suspicious. On your silver read do keep in mind that town can be misguided. I agree on Nick but that pushes them a little towards town for me. Vibes yknow. Your engagement with other players since this post has put you on my townlean list. btw how much experience do you have with forum mafia?
I'm going to stick by my town read on Daisy, despite how "messy" you may call it. I haven't actually disliked any of her posts yet, as each one tends to have at least some constructive merit and adds to the conversation. And the only reason people seem to be sus reading her from what I can tell is her discard and the fact that there is already a wagon. Until I hear some solid disection of their posts, I'm going to stand by how I feel. My ollie read, I admit I didn't explain like at all. What's curious about that is Ollie themselves didn't make any remark on my push, just saying they didn't have a read on me :/ that's kinda weird as town normally find pushes onto them very suspicious (as they are town). By ignoring it completely it reminds me of how I usually deal with call-outs as mafia - namely pretending they don't exist lol. My initial post came from a dislike on how they directed roles, namely King's. It felt like they were fishing for power role info, perhaps on someone that discarded a strong role but isn't in their mafia chat? In my experience scum don't fish for power role info D1. D1 is about not getting scumread. I read them as bad because that's what I think theyre trying to do. Demesne King - Your one post actually made sus reading you so much easier as you admitted you would discard a good town role for VT. Long story short, me use maths probability theorem to decide that if there are too few town roles that the player would pick over what they discarded, then they prob would have double power role of significance for town (given the risk of discarding it in terms of explaining). However, with the admission of VT as valid discards, this now tips the number of preferred town cards to an amount that now NO LONGER MAKES IT A RED HERRING. Which now puts Demesne King in an awkward position where they now must reveal their role to avoid either 1) accepting they would prefer VT over discard and so be killed by town or 2) denying the claim and dying to mafia as, if they do, THEY HAVE A REALLY GOOD TOWN POWER ROLE. I think they are bad, thus baiting out bad roles killing them. Note, not on the same team maybe as Daisy given the vote. And btw, the rest of your post is just claims that are purely game talk pointlessness or disproven by me or another player. But I can get into that later if wanted. (hellspawn)
Like I said I'm not going to engage with the discards here. You can do all the maths you like but the game would have been rerolled if thered been not enough or too many scum players so its not a fair roll. I rolled what I rolled. Drawing attention to who has what powerroles at this point in the game does nothing but benefit scum.
I don't know if esh is new to forum games in general or just this site but mass voting them is unlikely to make them engage more. It would be nice though to hear from them soon.
Vote: Olterior
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Post by luke on Jul 11, 2022 9:22:41 GMT
I'd say that I townread Aegis, Ashera, Molly and Olterior (and maybe you). You didn't ask me about scumreads but I'd say Daisy, Nick and Silver. Silver is openly townreading Daisy and I disagree, partly the Jack discard yeah but not only that. Nick just seems to be quite neutral so far, maybe this will change as we play. I'm wondering whether associatives are even a big thing in this game - there are 18 Mafia roles and 18 Werewolf roles out of 146 possible roles (155 if we are doing Replicants). So there might not even be an informed minority in this game. But my current scumreads aren't just based on associatives but more who I find individually suspicious. On your silver read do keep in mind that town can be misguided. I agree on Nick but that pushes them a little towards town for me. Vibes yknow. Your engagement with other players since this post has put you on my townlean list. btw how much experience do you have with forum mafia?
I have played 7-8 games on mafiascum since I joined the site at the start of this year.
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Post by Elements on Jul 11, 2022 9:41:41 GMT
Let's do a reads list!
Daisy - prob town
Ashera - tl, dr
Aegis - a fun bean
Silver - scum lean
Olterior - prob scum
Demesne King - prob town
Luke - town lean
Molly - Molly
Esh - eeehg
Nick G - neutral
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Aegis
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Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2022 9:56:53 GMT
Like I said I'm not going to engage with the discards here. You can do all the maths you like but the game would have been rerolled if thered been not enough or too many scum players so its not a fair roll. I rolled what I rolled. Drawing attention to who has what powerroles at this point in the game does nothing but benefit scum.
I don't know if esh is new to forum games in general or just this site but mass voting them is unlikely to make them engage more. It would be nice though to hear from them soon.
This is the two stuff I actually can respond to. 1) Ok, my knowledge on how Lucifer would run this was "as long as it can play through one day phase, I am running it". So the answer is simple. If that is how we are running it, then the claim about irrelevance of the math I did is incorrect or at least not nearly as powerful as you claim or, if it is being run as you claim, then I can just throw my reasoning in the trash and evaluate things based on when people joined the game and work out whether this loopy would draw too many scum or too little scum to determine who was just handed double town and/or double mafia to balance things. The last line is just wrong in this instance as well. In normal one scum faction setups, definitely is true, but with multiple factions around baiting one faction to kill someone you believe is in the other faction by saying that they are either on a different scum faction to you or a strong power roll can possibly benefit town. Risky, but can. 2) Just wanted to point this out as I agree and is another reason I dislike the Esh push. It is lazy, too easy to hide behind and may just waste time. And we all know there is no jester this time, right?
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Aegis
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Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2022 10:01:34 GMT
*loopy = lobby*
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Post by silver on Jul 11, 2022 10:09:16 GMT
With regards to Daisy:
First off, I will acknowledge I probably defended Daisy a bit *too* hard. I still think shes town, but when challenged I like to dig my heels in so I will apologise for the way I conducted myself in that debate.
Aegis raised some good points over the discussion that we had, but I was defending my "most town" read of daisy wayyyy back on like page 2 and given tho else had posted at that time (aka a very iffy post, basically no posts, Aegis being Aegis, basically no posts again, unhelpful posts, and Ollie being sus af) yeah Daisy was def the most town out of yall.
I think Daisy is still at my most-town, but yeah I downgraded Aegis in my read list out of spite and shouldnt have done that. You're probably fine Aegis, engaging in the conversation like this is more town leany for you.
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Post by silver on Jul 11, 2022 10:10:53 GMT
Let's do a reads list! Daisy - prob town Silver - scum lean Olterior - prob scum This makes... negative sense to me :/
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Post by Elements on Jul 11, 2022 10:12:03 GMT
Why? What's wrong with it?
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Aegis
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Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2022 10:15:52 GMT
I'm a bit confused here Aegis, can you answer these questions for me? 1) Have I been giving productive contributions? You stated in one post that I'd only given one productive post the whole day, but then in the other you say that the whole conversation/convocation (idk what the second word means lmao) has been productive, so I'm struggling to follow. 2) As the last couple pages have been messy, I'd like to clarify if you're pushing me for any other reasons bar just my discard. 1) The conversation we had around your wagon was, by my definition, productive. And as your intent was to explain/question stuff and was partly the source of the info, yes you were. But it was irrelevant to the intent of my reasoning - to challenge Silver's defence of their multicoloured post. So all posts a while after that (mostly the discussion about that very argument) was irrelevant to the point I was making. Thus the two statements you thought contradicted. 2) See your part on my reads list
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Post by silver on Jul 11, 2022 10:19:00 GMT
Why? What's wrong with it? Nothing is "wrong with it" per-say, I just dont understand how you came to that conclusion? Especially given how after the big conversation you didnt vote either me or Ollie, but Esh instead?
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Aegis
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Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2022 10:21:07 GMT
Let's do a reads list!... Aegis - a fun bean Me no compute this line. What is that to mean? I am having more fun than everyone else?
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Post by Daisy on Jul 11, 2022 10:36:33 GMT
Silver - Given a mountain of evidence for their defence of Daisy to be insufficient and very biased. The fact they also flipped onto Esh is bad, though not as bad. The main thing though that puts them above Olterior is how hard they defended Daisy and how frustrated they got defending them, which~ I’m~ surprised~ Daisy~ didn’t~ comment~ on~. Also they sus read me more for what felt like spite (just over hard scum).
1) I literally made a joke about her making an obvious attempt to pocket me wdym I didn't comment on it LMAO 2) Do you really think I was in a position at that point in the game to question the one person fking town reading me when no-one else was dgslkhsd I've just woke up, i'll give some more posts a look over and then give some opinions. I've had a skim read and I've still got the hump with Aegis, but idk if that's just the playstyle clash. The fact that Silver's come out now and said she maybe did defend me too hard/go too hard onto Aegis is kinda out of character for her typical mafia play. I think this leads me to scumread her to about the same degree as I do Aegis now, as I've found a less informed town Silver to be the kind to double down on big reads, whereas a more informed scum Silver is the one to be aware and pull out when things are gonna get too messy. BUT ALSO this is good play from you and I don't wanna punish you for it. Being able to take that step back to reevaluate is hella important in mafia and is a great skill to have and develop soooooo I'll get back to this. Take the skim-read reads with a grain of salt cause I've only skimmed but this is what I've got, I'll come back later for more informed reads Oh yea and for now cause I liked their post. Unvote: Demesne King
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Post by silver on Jul 11, 2022 10:44:12 GMT
Yeah, taking a step back from the game always makes me see it but its always too late to change it because at that point ive dug my grave kinda thing. I want to make it clear that im not backing down on my read though, I think im right about you. Its more of the way I talk and not actually taking onboard any critisism, its something im working on.
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Post by silver on Jul 11, 2022 10:44:36 GMT
Well i screwed up on formatting, but yall get the idea
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Aegis
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Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2022 10:45:04 GMT
Silver - Given a mountain of evidence for their defence of Daisy to be insufficient and very biased. The fact they also flipped onto Esh is bad, though not as bad. The main thing though that puts them above Olterior is how hard they defended Daisy and how frustrated they got defending them, which~ I’m~ surprised~ Daisy~ didn’t~ comment~ on~. Also they sus read me more for what felt like spite (just over hard scum).
1) I literally made a joke about her making an obvious attempt to pocket me wdym I didn't comment on it LMAO 2) Do you really think I was in a position at that point in the game to question the one person fking town reading me when no-one else was dgslkhsd I've just woke up, i'll give some more posts a look over and then give some opinions. I've had a skim read and I've still got the hump with Aegis, but idk if that's just the playstyle clash. The fact that Silver's come out now and said she maybe did defend me too hard/go too hard onto Aegis is kinda out of character for her typical mafia play. I think this leads me to scumread her to about the same degree as I do Aegis now... 1) I meant how Silver was getting emotionally charged. We both know how last game went. 2) Yet you were able to once the argument was over? I'd understand it if you continued to trust Silver until we got the 3 person Esh push, but you still had 3 people voting for u when u commented. 3) So I am being scum read....why? Honestly I do not give a rat's ass whether anyone likes[ what I am saying in terms of suspicions, but I am proving my innocence through several means ranging from how I have chosen to attack almost the entire lobby to redoing the whole song and dance I did last game. But it's fine, the only people who have scum read me did it out of spite, so I should be just leaving this alone. I am just drawing attention to the reasoning for when your reads list comes up.
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Post by Elements on Jul 11, 2022 10:45:57 GMT
Why? What's wrong with it? Nothing is "wrong with it" per-say, I just dont understand how you came to that conclusion? Especially given how after the big conversation you didnt vote either me or Ollie, but Esh instead? Neither of you have/had many votes, a big wagon is better than a 1 vote wagon
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Post by Elements on Jul 11, 2022 10:56:05 GMT
Let's do a reads list!... Aegis - a fun bean Me no compute this line. What is that to mean? I am having more fun than everyone else? It means I'm enjoying your existence in this game
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Aegis
Cult Leader
Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2022 10:56:38 GMT
Me no compute this line. What is that to mean? I am having more fun than everyone else? It means I'm enjoying your existence in this game Aww, thanks
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Post by silver on Jul 11, 2022 11:01:05 GMT
Vote : Elements
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Post by Elements on Jul 11, 2022 11:01:35 GMT
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Aegis
Cult Leader
Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2022 11:03:02 GMT
You know what, f*** it, let's try this Vote: OlteriorI think the group is now aware of my willingness to get Daisy to exile, but now I am curious if we can suddenly hammer Olterior
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Post by Elements on Jul 11, 2022 11:04:33 GMT
Vote:Olterior
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Post by silver on Jul 11, 2022 11:07:48 GMT
F*ck it, I think im right
Vote : Olterior
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Post by olterior on Jul 11, 2022 11:07:50 GMT
Finished my morning "lets check what these rascals are up to"
Excellent, immaculate. I literally don't know who you are but I like the cut of your jib. Voting? Fantastic. I love to see it when someone suspects me for town-reading them, that's even more towning my reading of you. In general I can see why my way of playing can be seen as "trying to get scumread", but fwiw it's more that I don't think it matters atm if I do get scumread.
On the Topic Of Daisy
Yeah lol I don't technically have a town read per se on Daisy, but still. Not voting there. Town reads remain Luke/ Aegis/ King, so Daisy's in the "shrug" category but with like an extra buff of "seems to be having a chill time and we like that".
Miscallaneous
- Ay yo Elements i like your list of stuff. I understand why I'm sus, I get the Silver scum lean but maybe I don't think they'd both happen at the same time. Snap on the town reads though! Makes me think you're vaguely cool.
- sometimes people just be saying stuff lmao
- Yeah I guess voting momentum is cool, though imo the current wagons have been p stadard. Not very spicy. So I'm gonna try voting someone who's actually been engaged a lot and so there's a lot of things to potentially look at when considering whether or not they're mafia + their discard being fairly NAI. Not necessarily someone I'd say I'm good at reading, slightly because I just skim half their long ass posts, but still. It's good content. Kinda interested why no one has voted them actually; my theory is that when someone just writes a lot of paragraphs in big words in an essay the marker is more likely to just assume it's probably right.
vote: Aegis
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Post by olterior on Jul 11, 2022 11:09:17 GMT
oh wait lol in my writing of this i didn't see everyone voting me big memes, y'all it's not even halfway through the day
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Aegis
Cult Leader
Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2022 11:09:41 GMT
Finished my morning "lets check what these rascals are up to"
Excellent, immaculate. I literally don't know who you are but I like the cut of your jib. Voting? Fantastic. I love to see it when someone suspects me for town-reading them, that's even more towning my reading of you. In general I can see why my way of playing can be seen as "trying to get scumread", but fwiw it's more that I don't think it matters atm if I do get scumread. Town reads remain Luke/ Aegis/ King, so Daisy's in the "shrug" category but with like an extra buff of "seems to be having a chill time and we like that".
Huh. So you town read me and yet you vote for me. Is this by any chance a joke or are you actually trying to do something?
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Post by olterior on Jul 11, 2022 11:11:22 GMT
I town read you but I don't really know why there's no one who doesn't town read you? currently mid way through making a funky formatted "this is what everyone thinks of everyone" and idk, you seem to be across the board town-read thing so it's very likely I've missed it. But it seems more ""productive"" to vote you rather than vote Esh.
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Aegis
Cult Leader
Posts: 685
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2022 11:13:40 GMT
I town read you but I don't really know why there's no one who doesn't town read you? currently mid way through making a funky formatted "this is what everyone thinks of everyone" and idk, you seem to be across the board town-read thing so it's very likely I've missed it. But it seems more ""productive"" to vote you rather than vote Esh. Bruh, Daisy. But sure, I am so town I shouldn't be town I guess. Also only 2 more votes before your ass is dead, so lets see if we actually need to play a 7 day day 1
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