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Post by Elements on Dec 13, 2022 15:53:45 GMT
Vote count 1.3Current votes Luke S-2: Daisy, Demesne King. HannahDaisy S-4: Ashera
Tom S-4: NickNot voting: Luke, Tom, MollyWith 8 alive it takes 5 to treestump someone. Link to the rules
Link to previous votecountLink to next votecountDay 1 will end either when a player reaches a majority of votes or at whatever time I wake up on Monday the 19th
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Post by luke on Dec 13, 2022 16:59:14 GMT
I agree that the purple font thing with Ashera and Luke was a bit odd but not necessarily incriminating. I think Luke could be a bit scummy actually since he's played a few of these games before and his questions are more aimed towards specific people rather than the group as a whole (apart from the AI one) and I feel like if he was town there would be more collective questions??? rather than trying to build up a more personal rapport with individuals??? 1) How many 'collective questions' would I have asked so far if I was town? What would I have asked people? The questions I asked had a specific point to them, I don't usually go in for the PSA-style posting that Nick was doing a bit of earlier. They helped me understand other players' thoughts more specifically than just posting "So what does everyone think then?" or whatever kind of 'collective question' you had in mind. 'Trying to build up a more personal rapport with individuals' - what. Several other players have asked specific other players things, it's part of how the game works. The alternative is everyone shouting into the void. I don't think I was overly friendly in my remarks. 2) Justify this accusation of pocketing please. 3) 'The purple font thing with Ashera' has somehow led you to put Ashera at the bottom of your list with me. What actually happened was that they voted me, I said ' why' and they unvoted me. 3) How has that led to a scumread on Ashera? They aren't mentioned anywhere else in your post.
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Post by Nick G on Dec 13, 2022 18:39:42 GMT
The drumming. Can't you hear it? I thought it would stop, but it never does.hannah- Individual questions can be helpful or harmful, in my opinion. It is good for making sure that you hear from who you want to hear from (or draw other people’s attention to a particular player’s opinion on a topic). The reason I say that it can be harmful is that it is possible give skewed/leading questions, e.g. asking someone a relatively easy question to pass while asking someone else a question that will either lead them into a conflict or has a ‘right’ answer that only the questioner knows. On balance, it’s good to ask individual questions to get conversation going, but I’m always going to look for potential motives for the questions.
- I’m personally going to ignore the whole “purple text” thing.
- I’m reserving comment on Molly/Ashera until I see some more from them.
- I doubt Tom is lying about losing a post (I’ve lost posts before), although I would be curious to know whether there were other points he didn’t re-type, or whether there was additional detail/evidence for the reads/comments he did re-type. Either way, I don’t really trust what I did see from him.
- I can’t really comment on DK’s playstyle (and I doubt anyone can, assuming that the claim is genuine). My own tendency towards mechanics/setup analysis in the early stages of a game is evidenced in the previous forum games if you’re that keen on checking, or Daisy could probably confirm this.
Luke’s response to Hannah’s scumread of them has actually significantly improved my opinion of them. - It feels like someone legitimately defending what I would tend to believe is a pro-Town playstyle (with the caveat that loaded questions can be used to target individuals by a Mafia player, but I’m not particularly seeing that).
- Defending Ashera against what, I’ll be honest, feels like a fairly unevidenced scumread. I feel like Luke could have got away without mentioning Ashera, and it would have been completely reasonable. The fact that they stepped in to mention this as another disagreement with Hannah’s reads feels like they are genuinely approaching Hannah’s reads from a Town perspective and deconstructing them, rather than Mafia taking a defensive position.
Obviously I’m still watching Luke as they’re probably in the most powerful position right now, which is something I’m always slightly wary of, but I’m happy to Townlean them at this point.
It is worth noting that they’re on T-2 now. It’s not overly concerning given that 2 of the 3 people yet to vote are unlikely to vote for Luke (Tom, who is Townreading Luke, and Luke himself). It’s probably inevitable given the small player count, but I’m still not sure how I feel about it.
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Tom
Private Investigator
Posts: 373
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Post by Tom on Dec 13, 2022 21:23:26 GMT
soo I haven't said a fat lot because I'm finding it hard to read people I know irl online and haven't really got any solid takes. that being said, I'll try my best Daisy's coming off as pretty townie right now as she's sort of throwing votes around without any visible agenda. I agree that the purple font thing with Ashera and Luke was a bit odd but not necessarily incriminating. I think Luke could be a bit scummy actually since he's played a few of these games before and his questions are more aimed towards specific people rather than the group as a whole (apart from the AI one) and I feel like if he was town there would be more collective questions??? rather than trying to build up a more personal rapport with individuals??? I'm unsure about Molly but I'm inclined to say she's good rn (maybe I'm biased because she thought I looked like Taylor Swift, maybe not) I'm not sure about Tom's alignment but I do believe he had a massive post that was lost, there's little point lying about that this early when you've got people like me who haven't said much at all as of yet. For DK and Nick, the two people that I'm pretty sure I've not played a game with before, I have nothing to go off of apart from stating your playstyles which as far as I know could be completely different to what you're presenting. But you look like you'll be having an interesting discussion so I think I'll just sit back and watch that unfold. so: Townreads: Daisy, Molly (DK?) Neutral: Nick, (DK?), Tom Maybe a bit more scummy: Luke, Ashera Vote: LukeLike I say this is my first forum game so apologies if my reads or reasoning are complete garbage hahaI can't lie this is the towniest thing I've read so far. I feel like mafia could easily just coast in this game so the fact you're going out your way to actually provide some insight when under no pressure seems towny, plus tone as well. I don't agree with the read on luke frankly, but the rest of the post pretty much mirrors what I'm thinking point by point. Tom - Daisy asking if anyone wants to start a wagon on Luke isn’t the same as Luke actually being wagoned. The actual wording completely undermines your claim, given that “start” indicates that the wagon doesn’t yet exist. There is precisely 1 vote on Luke right now, and not a huge amount of pressure on them. (There was an earlier, fairly short-lived vote from Ashera, but that didn’t overlap with Daisy’s vote.)
- If 1 vote and an unanswered request for support counts as a wagon, then I’ve been wagoned (page 2 by Daisy, not counting at least 3 players subsequently indicating that I am potentially suspicious just because something ‘could’ technically be done by Mafia), and Daisy is being wagoned with 2 votes by Demesne King and Ashera (which was the case when you mentioned a wagon on Luke). Yet you conveniently didn’t examine that, just a non-existent wagon on Luke.
- I made 4 points about your selection of comments/reads, and your response was “hmm” with flimsy evidence on a single point. The fact that you wouldn’t (or couldn’t) really address the other points is… interesting.
I can't lie buddy, you've basically sidestepped everything I said about luke to call me out on a single choice of wording. You were scum leaning luke at that point, and I tried to understand why and gave my suspected reason, which as far as I'm concerned is a "wagon" in a game like this with not many votes. Just people casting around suspicions generally in luke's direction counts as a wagon in my book for lack of a better term. I'm still townleaning Luke. Apologies, y'all (this is the sort of thing where colour becomes useful tho) Reading back now I'm not really a fan of this response. Still kinda null but I think I might park a vote here for the time being. VOTE: AsheraThat being said, I think normally in mafia games I find mafia by getting townreads first until I have a POE to sort out, but maybe that's not going to work in this setup. Daisy is kind of a null currently, though I unironically think the fact I'm not getting the big town energy from her yet is scum indicative lol. We will have to see! Demense King has a towny energy to their posts I can't really describe yet. They aren't hannah tier but still solid.
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Post by ashera on Dec 14, 2022 7:59:27 GMT
It is worth noting that they’re on T-2 now. It’s not overly concerning given that 2 of the 3 people yet to vote are unlikely to vote for Luke (Tom, who is Townreading Luke, and Luke himself). It’s probably inevitable given the small player count, but I’m still not sure how I feel about it. [/font][/div][/div] [/quote] Ok so I woke up and saw Luke was on L2 and was a little worried (clearly cause we’re mafia together /s) cause I don’t want the day to end before Molly gets more to do. But this is reassuring, thanks[/color]
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Post by Daisy on Dec 14, 2022 10:53:55 GMT
Ok it's probably a good time to ask whether the people (bar me cause i'm amazing) on the Luke wagon are on there for good reasons. I agree that the purple font thing with Ashera and Luke was a bit odd but not necessarily incriminating. I think Luke could be a bit scummy actually since he's played a few of these games before and his questions are more aimed towards specific people rather than the group as a whole (apart from the AI one) and I feel like if he was town there would be more collective questions??? rather than trying to build up a more personal rapport with individuals??? So Hannah's issue like mine was with the questions. However, rather than it being the specificity of the questions, Hannah's suspicion on Luke is more based on him wanting to ask individuals questions rather than the group. Imo, this isn't as much of a problem at all, mainly because asking open questions to the group typically doesn't generate a lot of discussion, whereas if someone asks a question directly to you you're almost forced to answer. Otherwise, you'll be dodging questions and thus looking pretty dang sus. Alongside this DK just voted Luke cause I asked them to, which whilst very kind of them doesn't really mean their vote holds much weight. Overall I do feel like the reasonings around this wagon are quite weak, and as the day goes on the wagons should have stronger and stronger justifications. Because of this, I'ma unvote for now. I might post a readlist today (as I need to summarise how I feel about people) but I'm feeling rather blegh and I'm a busy bee so we'll have to wait n see Unvote: Luke
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Post by luke on Dec 14, 2022 11:43:43 GMT
Interesting developments.
I don't see scum motivation behind Nick's comments about me. Especially given my situation at the time.
Tom's post is quite town for Tom.
Ashera hasn't really got out of second gear, reminding me of last forum game a bit.
Daisy seems very different to last forum game.
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Post by hannah on Dec 14, 2022 11:59:13 GMT
See, this stuff is good to know. Irl in mafia I feel that people ask more questions to the group as a whole, so that's what I was going off of to try and read people. But if one on ones are more common in forum games that's fine, now I know and I'll change my ways of reading others accordingly.
Never mentioned the word pocketing at all but go off I guess lol. I'm not even 100% sure what pocketing is but I'm guessing you're saying that I'm accusing you of trying to get players on your side?? That's not what I was trying to do. There's a difference between trying to be "friendlier" with other players and manipulating them into voting in a certain way or something like that.
I simply noted that you were having more individual conversations than general ones which confused me because I think that's rarer in irl mafia but if that's how it works in forums that's fine, just something I didn't know. It's almost as if I said my reads were gonna be garbage.
I'm perfectly happy to accept that my sort of scumread on Ashera has little evidence, I was kind of going off of their lack of speech and tone. I feel like if they were town they would have more to say.
I partially agree with this, Luke came off as too defensive to be mafia and he's kind of got that righteous townie anger thing going on. I voted him because I thought he seemed scummy but after that response I'm less sure. Maybe I'll take the vote off later.
I just wanted to try and actually contribute something towards the game instead of just sitting here reading everyone else's posts but if my reads are that bad maybe I'm better suited to mafia irl, sorry.
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Post by Daisy on Dec 14, 2022 12:30:42 GMT
I just wanted to try and actually contribute something towards the game instead of just sitting here reading everyone else's posts but if my reads are that bad maybe I'm better suited to mafia irl, sorry.Ayy don't worry about it, my reads were way worse in my first forum games lol, you'll get there <3 And also that mentality about wanting to contribute is really good!! Generating activity and discussion is a big thing in forum games so you're spot on with that. I think the biggest change with irl vs forum is that every word you type can and likely will be analysed by most people in the game, so taking some care when posting *can* be a good idea. But also I post loads despite this and it only sometimes gets me in trouble fsdglkj, so do what makes you feel most comfy.
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Post by luke on Dec 14, 2022 12:37:18 GMT
See, this stuff is good to know. Irl in mafia I feel that people ask more questions to the group as a whole, so that's what I was going off of to try and read people. But if one on ones are more common in forum games that's fine, now I know and I'll change my ways of reading others accordingly. Never mentioned the word pocketing at all but go off I guess lol. I'm not even 100% sure what pocketing is but I'm guessing you're saying that I'm accusing you of trying to get players on your side?? That's not what I was trying to do. There's a difference between trying to be "friendlier" with other players and manipulating them into voting in a certain way or something like that. I simply noted that you were having more individual conversations than general ones which confused me because I think that's rarer in irl mafia but if that's how it works in forums that's fine, just something I didn't know. It's almost as if I said my reads were gonna be garbage.
I'm perfectly happy to accept that my sort of scumread on Ashera has little evidence, I was kind of going off of their lack of speech and tone. I feel like if they were town they would have more to say. I partially agree with this, Luke came off as too defensive to be mafia and he's kind of got that righteous townie anger thing going on. I voted him because I thought he seemed scummy but after that response I'm less sure. Maybe I'll take the vote off later. I just wanted to try and actually contribute something towards the game instead of just sitting here reading everyone else's posts but if my reads are that bad maybe I'm better suited to mafia irl, sorry. 1) I didn't mean to come across as angry, but I was confused as to why you'd singled me out, and 'building up rapport' is the same thing as getting people onside. 2) The last line is quite funny, I think it shows a Town mindset also. Remember that no one's reads are bad before flips. (I am Town though) 3) I now think that Hannah, Daisy and Tom are Town, less sure on Nick but not as suspicious of him as I was. I'm sensing a lot of appetite in the thread for an Ashera wagon, so I will: Vote: Molly
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Post by Nick G on Dec 14, 2022 12:55:10 GMT
Tom: Sidestepping? Your original comments on Luke were the following: - Townleaning Luke based on tone, by your own admission without much evidence as Luke was just throwing reads around without much basis, but it “seemed pure”.
- Luke is being wagoned because of the individual questions they asked.
My thoughts:- I can’t argue much with tone, as it’s much more down to individual interpretation when we’re playing in a text-based format. But I stated in various posts that I’d like to see reasoning behind people’s reads. Should I have said it very specifically about Luke in a response to you? Maybe, but it’s not like I hadn’t already made my feelings clear about unsubstantiated reads.
- The idea of a “wagon” is votes. I’d say I’m pretty justified in calling you out for claiming that Luke was being “wagoned” when there was only 1 vote on them (especially as there were 2 votes on Daisy at that point).
- Daisy, the only person voting for Luke at that point, explicitly said that they voted for Luke because they were “bored”. I’ve gone back through the thread, and I haven’t found any particular pressure on Luke relating to the individual questions (e.g. the comments about being able to control the game) until after you made that claim. There was some semi-lighthearted pressure around the text colours, but that was it and mainly seemed like a joke (especially given that there was semi-random voting going on). So actually, you “can lie”.
- If you’re bringing up wagons, either as actual votes, or as pressure, you never mentioned it when talking about Daisy (who had 2 votes on her at the time) or me (who had no votes, but was getting pressured by Luke on account of my playstyle).
If you’re going to accuse people of sidestepping, though, let’s turn the tables. I didn’t just challenge you in your “Luke is being wagoned” statement, I also raised points about:- You townreading Hannah when, by her own admission later on, she had yet to make a “genuine” post. (Nothing prior to you townreading her was really in-game-related beyond asking about acronyms.)
- You made a claim about Daisy’s meta that I didn’t quite agree with (dynamic reads are Townie for her, static pushes are Mafia-indicative), and also felt like you pushing Daisy go back away from voting for Luke. (I don’t understand why that would be the case, but it felt that way.)
- You repeated a simplified version of the “Nick’s play is NAI so maybe he’s Mafia” argument already proposed by Luke and Molly. I challenged the idea that just because I could do something as Mafia doesn’t mean that I am Mafia.
I raised points on all 4 of the people you commented on, myself included. The only part you responded to was the part about wagons and Luke. You have repeatedly avoided responding to the other 3 points I raised, despite me pointing them out again subsequently. If anyone is sidestepping arguments, it’s you, and the fact that you’re trying to throw blame on me for it isn’t looking too Townie in my opinion.
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Post by ashera on Dec 14, 2022 13:07:10 GMT
I'm perfectly happy to accept that my sort of scumread on Ashera has little evidence, I was kind of going off of their lack of speech and tone. I feel like if they were town they would have more to say. Fair enough? I’d argue that what I’m doing right now is unbased and silly, which is how I’d describe my play style as VT, in person of course (as I’ve never been VT in a forum game). In my opinion, everything is arbitrary until someone dies, and I have nothing much to say, nor anything I believe could prove my innocence.
I know it’s all very good to claim what I’d do as mafia, but I’d probably be doing something else. For sure I’d find some excuse to vote Luke to get him to L1 (unless we’re mafia together? Unlikely)
Long story short, I see myself being voted out as the second best thing. Obviously, the best scenario is a mafia being voted out, but otherwise it’d be bad if I was still alive and being sussed tomorrow.[/color]
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Post by Demesne King on Dec 14, 2022 13:50:23 GMT
It was semiserious but now I want to commit to see who chickens out first! I didn't say I scumread Nick I said I didn't understand why they were being townread by anyone. They write a lot and I don't really know how to read them though sooo maybe if someone could answer my question about if this is a mafia style for them that would be great lol
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Post by Demesne King on Dec 14, 2022 13:56:30 GMT
I don't really understand why anyone is townreading Nick at this point... all they seem to be saying is things apparent about the game and by their own admission they think they're acting how they would as mafia soooo I'm also not really sure how Nick can have a mafia read on Tom since they've basically said nothing all game except that they had a big post ready and then lost it and the post they made instead just has some really room temperature takes unless I'm missing some context Okay, that’s an interesting take: - Unless I’m missing something, precisely one person is townleaning me, and I’ve not even seen recent confirmation of that. And the “by my own admission” is that the behaviour is NAI, not that it’s definitely how I would play as Mafia (whereas your post implies that a “Town Nick” would play differently). It’s interesting that we’re now up to 4 players (half the lobby) who have chosen to emphasise that I’m suspicious simply because NAI content can be said by Mafia.
- On the “apparent about the game” comment - we have at least one player (maybe more) with no previous forum Mafia experience, and likely several with only 1-2 forum games under their belt. Majority voting (as opposed to simultaneous voting at the end of the dayphase) can lead to completely different strategies/situations that you don’t even see in in-person Mafia. Add in the day 1 flagbearer mechanic for the Mafia team, and I felt it was worth bringing up.
- Additionally, I’ve engaged with Daisy, Tom and Luke on more than just game mechanics. To say “all” I’ve been saying is stuff that is apparent about the game is a misrepresentation and does feel like you’re lining up to place a vote on me (as I’m assuming that your vote on Luke doesn’t have much weight, due to its context).
- Tom may or may not have had a huge post (I don’t deny that technical issues happen, as I frequently experience them myself, but it can be a convenient excuse to use less detail), but that’s beside the point. Tom talked about a “wagon” on Luke that didn’t even exist (while ignoring what was technically a wagon on Daisy), gave a read on Daisy that basically said “if you are Town you’ll change your reads” (which could be seen as an attempt to get Daisy to back off Luke), townread Hannah when Hannah has had very limited game-related content so far, and followed the aforementioned “NAI could mean Mafia” line that keeps being used to cast suspicion on me. When challenged on this, all Tom did was quote a post by Daisy that somewhat undermines the claim about a wagon on Luke, and avoid answering anything else in favour of asking Luke for more reads.
It does come down to the fact that we’re around 48 hours into the first (and only, if we get this right) dayphase of the game. We all need to start giving reads, and I much prefer to give reads based on some reasonable chain of logic/evidence. Not only does this narrow down the pool of people I can actually supply reads on (I’ve not really got enough to read Molly, Hannah or Ashera, and previously probably couldn’t have made a meaningful analysis on you either, as your main game content prior to this set of posts was a joke vote on Daisy), it puts me at odds with Tom due to the aforementioned flaws with (or lack of) evidence/logic for their comments/reads.
You take this so seriously lol I didn't say I scumread you I just said you've only said generally agreeable things that anyone could say. You made a point that you try to play consistently regardless of roll so I wanna know why anyone who reads you as town could reach that opinion so soon. If you're gonna call me out on technicalities like how I said all you've said is obviously true stuff but you totally said some stuff that wasn't then you might as well vote me now because I can't with this pedanticness
I don't think we should be playing with the aim to win today. It would be really good but if we don't then we want to be in a really good position to work out the game tomorrow
Also lol yeah it took me ages to write a post with more than one quote I'm never doing that again
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Post by Demesne King on Dec 14, 2022 13:58:59 GMT
Ok it's probably a good time to ask whether the people (bar me cause i'm amazing) on the Luke wagon are on there for good reasons. I agree that the purple font thing with Ashera and Luke was a bit odd but not necessarily incriminating. I think Luke could be a bit scummy actually since he's played a few of these games before and his questions are more aimed towards specific people rather than the group as a whole (apart from the AI one) and I feel like if he was town there would be more collective questions??? rather than trying to build up a more personal rapport with individuals??? So Hannah's issue like mine was with the questions. However, rather than it being the specificity of the questions, Hannah's suspicion on Luke is more based on him wanting to ask individuals questions rather than the group. Imo, this isn't as much of a problem at all, mainly because asking open questions to the group typically doesn't generate a lot of discussion, whereas if someone asks a question directly to you you're almost forced to answer. Otherwise, you'll be dodging questions and thus looking pretty dang sus. Alongside this DK just voted Luke cause I asked them to, which whilst very kind of them doesn't really mean their vote holds much weight. Overall I do feel like the reasonings around this wagon are quite weak, and as the day goes on the wagons should have stronger and stronger justifications. Because of this, I'ma unvote for now. I might post a readlist today (as I need to summarise how I feel about people) but I'm feeling rather blegh and I'm a busy bee so we'll have to wait n see Unvote: Lukeomg Daisy you already chickened out!! the 1v1 is back on!
vote Daisy
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Post by Demesne King on Dec 14, 2022 14:08:58 GMT
I'm perfectly happy to accept that my sort of scumread on Ashera has little evidence, I was kind of going off of their lack of speech and tone. I feel like if they were town they would have more to say. Fair enough? I’d argue that what I’m doing right now is unbased and silly, which is how I’d describe my play style as VT, in person of course (as I’ve never been VT in a forum game). In my opinion, everything is arbitrary until someone dies, and I have nothing much to say, nor anything I believe could prove my innocence.
I know it’s all very good to claim what I’d do as mafia, but I’d probably be doing something else. For sure I’d find some excuse to vote Luke to get him to L1 (unless we’re mafia together? Unlikely)
Long story short, I see myself being voted out as the second best thing. Obviously, the best scenario is a mafia being voted out, but otherwise it’d be bad if I was still alive and being sussed tomorrow.[/color][/quote][/div]
I don't really like this "you should all vote me out" attitude... suss
Everyone else is posting their read lists so here's mine atm: Hannah, Tom
Nick, Molly
Luke, Ashera, Daisy
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Post by Nick G on Dec 14, 2022 14:47:33 GMT
Now that that’s out of the way… - I was less concerned about the number of votes on Luke (especially given who they were), and more concerned that he was technically 2 votes from being Treestumped. Those 2 votes didn’t seem likely to appear, it’s more that I don’t like early majorities as they end the dayphase early and reduce the amount of information we can gather (and I certainly didn’t think Luke merited being Treestumped yet, even if I wasn’t against the general idea of early day ends).
hannah- Forum games allow you to have 1-to-1 discussions/questions without excluding the rest of the group, so it can be a slightly different dynamic to in-person Mafia (although I’ve not played in-person since Spring Term 2020).
- I’d always much rather reads that we can talk about, than no reads. Even if I don’t agree with them, at least we can discuss what they may say about your alignment. If you’re contributing, don’t apologise.
luke- What about Tom’s behaviour seems particularly Townie? I’ve not played with him before, so I’m basing my thoughts on general meta - I’m not trusting what I’m seeing from him now, but if he has a very different meta (or I’m tunnelling / missing something), I’m happy to at least take that into consideration.
- Ashera being quieter is something I’m keeping an eye on, but I’m aware that some of us talk more than others, especially in the early stages of a game.
- I believe Daisy was a Serial Killer last game, but I’m not sure how much I read into “different to last game” when Daisy’s playstyle can vary significantly within an alignment (or at least it used to in Discord sessions).
ashera- I wouldn’t say “everything is arbitrary” until someone has been Treestumped. We can look at play styles, reactions, interactions, etc. I would say that it’s more “disconnected”/“hypothetical” until we see who is Treestumped (and assuming it ends up being a Town who is Treestumped, who the Mafia then leave alive). We can analyse, but we have no way of connecting it up or proving the “player X pushed player Y, so if X is Town then Y may be Mafia) type of arguments.
- As previously stated, I don’t want anyone Treestumped just yet (even if someone like Daisy starts claiming to be Mafia as part of some obscure strategy) - we have a few days left of this dayphase, so we may as well get as much information out of this as possible.
Demesne King- Going full analysis is sort of my playstyle. I’m still having fun.
- You didn’t outright say “you are Mafia”, but you were one of 4 players who chose to emphasise the possibility of my typically NAI behaviour being Mafia. That feels like a scumlean. (I’m not criticising it, it was just interesting to see half the player group take the exact same approach.)
- Apologies if it’s annoying, but saying that everything I say is apparent about the game felt a little unfair when I had started saying some non-mech-based things. Saying that someone hasn’t contributed anything new/personal to the game is usually a good way to start a push on them, so I simply thought I’d defend myself before it gained traction (especially given the prior pressure from Luke).
- I think it’s unlikely that we’ll win today. It would definitely be nice to win, but I’m not focusing purely on that. I agree that we need to be in a decent position for the second dayphase if it comes to that. (At least we’ll all be able to contribute to that, rather than being dead.)
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Molly
RNJesus
That's a nice thing you've said! Let's see how I can relate it back to Ratchet and Clank
Posts: 104
Pronoun: She/Her
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Post by Molly on Dec 14, 2022 14:52:38 GMT
This is a very quick reply cuz break at work but haven't said too much since yesterday cuz I really haven't had much reads so far, I might reread stuff and look at the new one to see if anything changes. Not planning to vote Luke, don't want it to get to 1 vote to stump yet
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Post by luke on Dec 14, 2022 15:14:55 GMT
Now that that’s out of the way… - I was less concerned about the number of votes on Luke (especially given who they were), and more concerned that he was technically 2 votes from being Treestumped. Those 2 votes didn’t seem likely to appear, it’s more that I don’t like early majorities as they end the dayphase early and reduce the amount of information we can gather (and I certainly didn’t think Luke merited being Treestumped yet, even if I wasn’t against the general idea of early day ends).
hannah - Forum games allow you to have 1-to-1 discussions/questions without excluding the rest of the group, so it can be a slightly different dynamic to in-person Mafia (although I’ve not played in-person since Spring Term 2020).
- I’d always much rather reads that we can talk about, than no reads. Even if I don’t agree with them, at least we can discuss what they may say about your alignment. If you’re contributing, don’t apologise.
luke - What about Tom’s behaviour seems particularly Townie? I’ve not played with him before, so I’m basing my thoughts on general meta - I’m not trusting what I’m seeing from him now, but if he has a very different meta (or I’m tunnelling / missing something), I’m happy to at least take that into consideration.
- Ashera being quieter is something I’m keeping an eye on, but I’m aware that some of us talk more than others, especially in the early stages of a game.
- I believe Daisy was a Serial Killer last game, but I’m not sure how much I read into “different to last game” when Daisy’s playstyle can vary significantly within an alignment (or at least it used to in Discord sessions).
ashera - I wouldn’t say “everything is arbitrary” until someone has been Treestumped. We can look at play styles, reactions, interactions, etc. I would say that it’s more “disconnected”/“hypothetical” until we see who is Treestumped (and assuming it ends up being a Town who is Treestumped, who the Mafia then leave alive). We can analyse, but we have no way of connecting it up or proving the “player X pushed player Y, so if X is Town then Y may be Mafia) type of arguments.
- As previously stated, I don’t want anyone Treestumped just yet (even if someone like Daisy starts claiming to be Mafia as part of some obscure strategy) - we have a few days left of this dayphase, so we may as well get as much information out of this as possible.
Demesne King - Going full analysis is sort of my playstyle. I’m still having fun.
- You didn’t outright say “you are Mafia”, but you were one of 4 players who chose to emphasise the possibility of my typically NAI behaviour being Mafia. That feels like a scumlean. (I’m not criticising it, it was just interesting to see half the player group take the exact same approach.)
- Apologies if it’s annoying, but saying that everything I say is apparent about the game felt a little unfair when I had started saying some non-mech-based things. Saying that someone hasn’t contributed anything new/personal to the game is usually a good way to start a push on them, so I simply thought I’d defend myself before it gained traction (especially given the prior pressure from Luke).
- I think it’s unlikely that we’ll win today. It would definitely be nice to win, but I’m not focusing purely on that. I agree that we need to be in a decent position for the second dayphase if it comes to that. (At least we’ll all be able to contribute to that, rather than being dead.)
Tom is Tom, and he plays Town a bit weirdly.
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Post by hannah on Dec 14, 2022 19:06:34 GMT
Ah my bad I didn't mean to say you were actually angry, I just meant you had that sort of townie indignation that most people do (I do at least!!) when they're being being wrongly accused. I liked this defense, it seems pretty townie. But that means I'm townreading a lot of people rn...back to the drawing board I guess. Still feeling neutral about Tom, Nick and Dk but those three are having some interesting discussions rn so I think I'll watch that unfold and place a vote accordingly. But for now: Unvote Luke
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Post by Daisy on Dec 14, 2022 19:30:34 GMT
Ok readlist time wahoo Townlean: Hannah - Hannah is someone who I'm leaning town on this game. I think her efforts/contributions towards the game have been genuine, and I'm reading a lot of her posts as coming from a position of good faith. Tom - Tom's been fine this game so far. Is giving out reads, making pushes, is paranoid I might be mafia. Ticks the day 1 Tom town boxes for me Neutral: Luke - The more that time passes the better I feel here. He put himself in a good spot at the start of the game that worried me, but his reaction to the push on him has been relatively calm and measured and he's been an active contributor to discussions, so I'm warming up to him. DK - I have two big questions about this slot. Why is me re-evaluating my read and hopping off the wagon scummy to you (assuming that's what your vote was about), and why should we not try and win Day 1? Sure the game will go to a final 3 at the end of today and preparing for that is gonna be useful, but if we can find mafia today and win, it's at the very least worth aiming for surely. Plus it's one of two chances we have to vote out mafia in this game, and I don't wanna waste it. Getting answers to these questions should hopefully let me figure out how I feel here.
Ashera - I've really got nothing on this slot right now. The colour thing looks like it means nothing in the grander scheme of things, and Ashe has been relatively inactive. However one thing that I want to touch on is that Ashe is also in the "eh Day 1 doesn't really matter" camp (in one of their posts they say everything is abritrary until someone dies) which as you know I rly rly disagree with, hence why they're at the lower end of neutral for me. Scumlean: Molly - By nature of being very inactive I sorta have to put her here. We've got plenty of time to talk with her and here what she has to say, but until then she stays here. Nick - Ok so my read on Nick has already been all over the place this game but seeing the interactions with Tom happen has pinged me. There exists a piece of meta around Nick which I usually try and avoid talking about because knowledge of it could mean people just try to provoke Nick to get a reaction which like, isn't cool. This "meta" is that Nick reacts more passionately to a push against him as a mafia compared to a town, and I'm seeing this play out SO hard with the Tom - Nick altercation. It's making me believe he really might be mafia, and as this meta is at the crux of my read, I felt that I should mention it. And well if someone's at the bottom of my readlist, it's best for my vote to be there. Sorry Nick. Vote: Nick G
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Post by Daisy on Dec 14, 2022 19:40:01 GMT
Also hannah I'm noticing you're following a lot of what I've been saying/doing (joining me on the Luke wagon and then hopping off of the Luke wagon once I'm off of it, plus mentioning the colour thing between Luke/Ashera). Is there a particular reason for this or is it just cause you're agreeing with what I'm saying for the most part?
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Post by hannah on Dec 14, 2022 20:02:38 GMT
Icl Daisy I didn't even notice you'd come off the Luke wagon sorry, I made that decision on my own. As for the other points, it's just because I generally agree with what you're saying (and I'm quite an easily led person, make of that what you will haha)
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Molly
RNJesus
That's a nice thing you've said! Let's see how I can relate it back to Ratchet and Clank
Posts: 104
Pronoun: She/Her
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Post by Molly on Dec 14, 2022 20:09:30 GMT
Ok! Back home, read all the posts and I think I'm more confident in making a reads list?
Firstly though I guess out of like, anything notable not reads related I think that the whole debate over purple text is pointless as all heck. I really don't know how it's relevant in any way to the conversation
As for reads!
Town: Tom: Tom I feel like is playing in a very Tom way? And that usually means town. Hannah: I think Hannah just gives me the vibes I feel like I gave off during my first forum mafia game, so I wanna say town
Neutral (as in my feelings and not the role type): Ashera: I can't really get a proper read on them, and I definitely don't want to fully go town after last game, but I do like to believe they wouldn't go with the "Go on, eliminate me" strategy as a mafia? Feels really standout-y. Neutral-ish feelings but with a town lean Daisy: Also neutral with a town lean. It would be town but that's what I thought last time and then she was a serial killer so I'd rather be on the safe side and not be too trusting DK: DK gives me the vibes of someone who could flawlessly blend into either role and I don't think any actions DK has done have been particularly allignment indicative so eh.
Mafia: Either Luke or Nick G. I feel like it's one of the two of them, don't know which one. Both of them give the vibes of "Active as a cover rather than for town reasons". Still don't wanna plant a vote cuz we have a few days left and I don't want it to accidentally cause an errant stump. Cuz if we were all stumping errantly, there would be no more forests anymore!
Uh, if anyone wants to ask me any questions lemme know, I have no idea what we can talk about here lmao
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Post by Demesne King on Dec 15, 2022 8:05:00 GMT
Demesne King - Going full analysis is sort of my playstyle. I’m still having fun.
- You didn’t outright say “you are Mafia”, but you were one of 4 players who chose to emphasise the possibility of my typically NAI behaviour being Mafia. That feels like a scumlean. (I’m not criticising it, it was just interesting to see half the player group take the exact same approach.)
- Apologies if it’s annoying, but saying that everything I say is apparent about the game felt a little unfair when I had started saying some non-mech-based things. Saying that someone hasn’t contributed anything new/personal to the game is usually a good way to start a push on them, so I simply thought I’d defend myself before it gained traction (especially given the prior pressure from Luke).
- I think it’s unlikely that we’ll win today. It would definitely be nice to win, but I’m not focusing purely on that. I agree that we need to be in a decent position for the second dayphase if it comes to that. (At least we’ll all be able to contribute to that, rather than being dead.)
It wasn't annoying lol I was trying to criticise the people who were starting to townread you rather than you yourself I didn't expect you to respond so defenseively about it
You're like the most talkative person here it just felt like you weren't actually saying that much
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Post by Demesne King on Dec 15, 2022 8:10:56 GMT
Ok readlist time wahoo Townlean: Hannah - Hannah is someone who I'm leaning town on this game. I think her efforts/contributions towards the game have been genuine, and I'm reading a lot of her posts as coming from a position of good faith. Tom - Tom's been fine this game so far. Is giving out reads, making pushes, is paranoid I might be mafia. Ticks the day 1 Tom town boxes for me Neutral: Luke - The more that time passes the better I feel here. He put himself in a good spot at the start of the game that worried me, but his reaction to the push on him has been relatively calm and measured and he's been an active contributor to discussions, so I'm warming up to him. DK - I have two big questions about this slot. Why is me re-evaluating my read and hopping off the wagon scummy to you (assuming that's what your vote was about), and why should we not try and win Day 1? Sure the game will go to a final 3 at the end of today and preparing for that is gonna be useful, but if we can find mafia today and win, it's at the very least worth aiming for surely. Plus it's one of two chances we have to vote out mafia in this game, and I don't wanna waste it. Getting answers to these questions should hopefully let me figure out how I feel here.
Ashera - I've really got nothing on this slot right now. The colour thing looks like it means nothing in the grander scheme of things, and Ashe has been relatively inactive. However one thing that I want to touch on is that Ashe is also in the "eh Day 1 doesn't really matter" camp (in one of their posts they say everything is abritrary until someone dies) which as you know I rly rly disagree with, hence why they're at the lower end of neutral for me. Scumlean: Molly - By nature of being very inactive I sorta have to put her here. We've got plenty of time to talk with her and here what she has to say, but until then she stays here. Nick - Ok so my read on Nick has already been all over the place this game but seeing the interactions with Tom happen has pinged me. There exists a piece of meta around Nick which I usually try and avoid talking about because knowledge of it could mean people just try to provoke Nick to get a reaction which like, isn't cool. This "meta" is that Nick reacts more passionately to a push against him as a mafia compared to a town, and I'm seeing this play out SO hard with the Tom - Nick altercation. It's making me believe he really might be mafia, and as this meta is at the crux of my read, I felt that I should mention it. And well if someone's at the bottom of my readlist, it's best for my vote to be there. Sorry Nick. Vote: Nick GWe totally should try to win today but not playing around the chance we don't puts us in a really bad position because tonight is the only chance we get to get actual evidence of anything. The big difference this game to most I've played it mafia can't afford to lose a player so pushing people to almost get voted means we can see if someone really doesn't want that vote. If someone gives the final vote and ends the day early then that's like the most mafia thing you could possibly do.
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Post by Demesne King on Dec 15, 2022 8:13:58 GMT
soo I haven't said a fat lot because I'm finding it hard to read people I know irl online and haven't really got any solid takes. that being said, I'll try my best Daisy's coming off as pretty townie right now as she's sort of throwing votes around without any visible agenda. I agree that the purple font thing with Ashera and Luke was a bit odd but not necessarily incriminating. I think Luke could be a bit scummy actually since he's played a few of these games before and his questions are more aimed towards specific people rather than the group as a whole (apart from the AI one) and I feel like if he was town there would be more collective questions??? rather than trying to build up a more personal rapport with individuals??? I'm unsure about Molly but I'm inclined to say she's good rn (maybe I'm biased because she thought I looked like Taylor Swift, maybe not) I'm not sure about Tom's alignment but I do believe he had a massive post that was lost, there's little point lying about that this early when you've got people like me who haven't said much at all as of yet. For DK and Nick, the two people that I'm pretty sure I've not played a game with before, I have nothing to go off of apart from stating your playstyles which as far as I know could be completely different to what you're presenting. But you look like you'll be having an interesting discussion so I think I'll just sit back and watch that unfold. so: Townreads: Daisy, Molly (DK?) Neutral: Nick, (DK?), Tom Maybe a bit more scummy: Luke, Ashera Vote: LukeLike I say this is my first forum game so apologies if my reads or reasoning are complete garbage hahaI can't lie this is the towniest thing I've read so far. I feel like mafia could easily just coast in this game so the fact you're going out your way to actually provide some insight when under no pressure seems towny, plus tone as well. I don't agree with the read on luke frankly, but the rest of the post pretty much mirrors what I'm thinking point by point. I'm worried the only reason I like Tom is because everyone else likes Tom but I have liked most of what they've said. I just reread this again though and I don't like the idea that mafia are just going to coast. Obviously mafia totally will just give out insight to blend in.
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Post by Nick G on Dec 15, 2022 9:55:17 GMT
I’m pretty sure I’m now trapped. If I go heavy defensive, I’ll be “passionate” and, according to Daisy, therefore Mafia. If I don’t defend myself fully, Tom can (legitimately, this time) accuse me of sidestepping. Anyways… Daisy, I’m obviously not fully aware of my own personal meta, but I do have some comments. - Even if I do react as you say to a push against me, I’m not entirely sure that it’s entirely relevant in this case. If you look at the start of the conflict between Tom and myself, it’s primarily initiated by me, and mainly in response to his misleading (or false) claim about a wagon on Luke, rather than his comment that everything I have said ‘could’ be Mafia. It arguably gets “passionate” before Tom even goes on the offensive by accusing me of sidestepping.
- In the previous forum game, I’d argue that I had a relatively passionate defence when Elements attempted to flip a push back on me (and got a reasonable amount of support on it) in the first dayphase. It’s worth noting that I turned out to be Town in that game.
- I may or may not get more passionate about defending when I’m Mafia, but I know that I do typically get more passionate/defensive when people lie about what I (or other people, to an extent) have said/done. I know lying is part of Mafia, but personally there’s a difference between, say, someone lying about an investigative result they have on me, and saying “Nick said X” when I didn’t, especially in a forum game when there’s proof of what people have said.
- With the above point in mind, look at my responses to the four people (aside from yourself) who could be said to have pushed me / said I could be suspicious: Luke, Molly, Demesne King and Tom. I have relatively calm responses (I’d say) to Luke and Molly, who basically said that NAI plays could be Mafia, and to Demesne when they mentioned this as well. The more “passionate” responses are to Demesne’s statement that I was only saying what was already apparent about the game (when I believe I’d already contributed at least some content that wasn’t pure mech/strategy talk), and Tom when he first made a misleading statement about a wagon on Luke, and then stepped up a gear when he falsely accused me of sidestepping his reads. Make of that what you will.
On Tom, I would really like to know what I’m missing beyond “Tom plays Town weirdly”.- Tom’s initial set of “reads” seemed weak/suspicious at best: exaggerating the small push on Luke (while not mentioning that more people were questioning my playstyle or that Daisy had more votes on them), townreading Hannah (when she hadn’t made any genuine game-related posts yet), giving a read on Daisy (which I disagreed with the logic of, although I could be wrong on) and then borderline threatening that if they didn’t change their vote on Luke that they were Mafia, and repeating a statement about my play that 2-3 people had already made. They don’t feel like random votes / reads to stir conversation, they feel like someone trying to create/control a narrative regardless of the facts (get people to back off Luke, force Daisy into reconsidering reads and reinforce the lack of trust in my playstyle).
- Sidesteps my responses on three of these points in favour of debating what constitutes a wagon, and then falsely accuses me of sidestepping to try and turn the pressure onto me instead. I don’t see how straight up lying (and refusing to discuss certain reads) is at all beneficial to Town. It’s beneficial to Tom, because it undermines the only person who has really challenged him this game (so far as I remember er), but I fail to see how it is Townie behaviour.
If Tom was Town and genuinely thought I was suspicious, I feel like we’d see more genuine reasons as to why, rather than simply lying about my interactions. I’m actually slightly concerned that he hasn’t been called out by anyone else on some of the more blatantly problematic claims (claiming Hannah was townie before she contributed a “genuine” post, by her own admission, and the false claim about me sidestepping when I had clearly addressed his other reads), but there are only 2 Mafia in this game and there is more than 1 person ignoring/missing this.
I realise that this is obviously going to come off as overly defensive, but I feel that I don’t really have a choice given the nature of certain pushes against me. Interestingly, I don’t actually see Daisy’s switch to scumreading me as suspicious, I just think it’s flawed given the context. (I think they could bring it up as either alignment. I also think that they would be genuinely hesitant about using the meta for the exact reason they said, regardless of alignment. I just don’t have any ‘pings’ about this being an overly suspicious move to change my opinion on Daisy’s alignment.)
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Tom
Private Investigator
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Post by Tom on Dec 15, 2022 11:54:24 GMT
You're like the most talkative person here it just felt like you weren't actually saying that much 100% agree with this, I have the same vibe from nick but didn't really know how to word it in a post. Have you played with nick before out of curiosity? I feel like since I don't know him I lack context. Nick - Ok so my read on Nick has already been all over the place this game but seeing the interactions with Tom happen has pinged me. There exists a piece of meta around Nick which I usually try and avoid talking about because knowledge of it could mean people just try to provoke Nick to get a reaction which like, isn't cool. This "meta" is that Nick reacts more passionately to a push against him as a mafia compared to a town, and I'm seeing this play out SO hard with the Tom - Nick altercation. It's making me believe he really might be mafia, and as this meta is at the crux of my read, I felt that I should mention it. And well if someone's at the bottom of my readlist, it's best for my vote to be there. Sorry Nick. Vote: Nick GThis is a very interesting bit of a meta Daisy. I will be 100% honest though, this is the kind of post that would look very bad if nick flips town. I could totally see this post coming from a mafia who is just looking to get nick killed then stump themselves and laugh at us. Idk, something about the wording of this is off. Like it seems a bit too self-aware and more concerned with keeping up appearances than being a genuine read? Idk. Either way, I doubt daisy/nick are two mafia. Mafia: Either Luke or Nick G. I feel like it's one of the two of them, don't know which one. Both of them give the vibes of "Active as a cover rather than for town reasons". Still don't wanna plant a vote cuz we have a few days left and I don't want it to accidentally cause an errant stump. Cuz if we were all stumping errantly, there would be no more forests anymore! Uh, if anyone wants to ask me any questions lemme know, I have no idea what we can talk about here lmao Yeah this might be hypocritical coming from me but do you have any specific luke/nick posts you can quote that back up what you're saying here? It'd be interesting.
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Tom
Private Investigator
Posts: 373
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Post by Tom on Dec 15, 2022 11:59:37 GMT
3) I now think that Hannah, Daisy and Tom are Town, less sure on Nick but not as suspicious of him as I was. I'm sensing a lot of appetite in the thread for an Ashera Remind me why you think Daisy is town, king.
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