ArnieDelsey
Dreaming God
Dont let my avatar fool you, I'm actually mafia.
Posts: 639
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Post by ArnieDelsey on Jul 7, 2019 21:51:13 GMT
There could be three mafia who are in a different group each night which would limit bidding collution The danger with that is that if a mafia is lynched, then there’s a possibility for four town reveals based off of who was also in the madia’s bidding group. Plus iirc bidding groups are randomised.
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Post by pandamonium on Jul 7, 2019 21:58:34 GMT
There could be three mafia who are in a different group each night which would limit bidding collution The danger with that is that if a mafia is lynched, then there’s a possibility for four town reveals based off of who was also in the madia’s bidding group. Plus iirc bidding groups are randomised. That is very true, i retract that though from considereation
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Post by pandamonium on Jul 7, 2019 21:58:52 GMT
As well as knowing information from more than one bidding pool. just a guess
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Post by pandamonium on Jul 7, 2019 22:00:10 GMT
As well as knowing information from more than one bidding pool. just a guess From that fact that my bidding pool had a specific cluedo card in it and there are three bidding groups and three things you need to know in cluedo
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Post by pandamonium on Jul 7, 2019 22:03:31 GMT
Who wouldn't want a potentially investigative item?
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Post by Hectic on Jul 7, 2019 22:24:18 GMT
ArnieDelsey: Mafia making themselves look town to acquire items cheaply is a lot easier said than done. We don't want to bid within ourselves and let someone null/scum on most people's reads lists win an item. Plus, since mafia start with more gold, we'd run out of gold faster than them with your strat. Mafia's likely to have one of a strongman/roleblocker/item thief, so stacking 3 items onto the towniest town is a bad idea. Spreading them out makes more sense.
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Post by Hectic on Jul 7, 2019 22:40:02 GMT
Also, I just want to clarify to anyone that's unsure that I am 99% sure mafia do infact have a night chat. So before you jump on a bandwagon and eliminate me for knowing this, I'd like to cite post 29 from page number 2. Here you will find Benjamin - a moderator for this game of forum mafia - say the following: I'd like to take this opportunity to confirm that that the mafia do indeed have a night chat. I rest my case, though I am open to further discussion on this topic if anyone disagrees. 100% yes on lynching someone. Despite the distraction of bidding, the majority of the day should still be used to find scum and the best eliminate candidate.
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Post by jackoclypse on Jul 7, 2019 22:40:36 GMT
Just going to say that if everyone now tried to bid 110 gold mafia would all be caught day 1 (joke)
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Post by yelyab on Jul 7, 2019 22:49:39 GMT
Hello everyone hope people are well, from reading through everyone’s thoughts I agree with not sharing roles as this will five mafia too much information although I don’t think we should reveal bidding groups as mafia would (possibly) be able to narrow down people who have certain items from people revealing this. On the subject of lynching day 1 I think this is a must as someone has said already town could have less powerful roles and the chance of lynching mafia is still fairly high. I don’t think revealing bidding information is good yet either as again this will give the mafia something to base their night kill off. On the subject of letting town member win items for cheap I think this is risky as could lead to a mafia acquiring a large amount of items for cheaps, if they appear very town. I think I have covered everything but if people would like me to elaborate or if I missed anything let me know 👍
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Post by Benjamin on Jul 7, 2019 22:49:39 GMT
Just going to say that if everyone now tried to bid 110 gold mafia would all be caught day 1 (joke) I'd like to issue a reminder that there's a strict rule that you can be modkilled for trying to bid more than you are actually able to bid (or obviously, trying to force others to do so to get them modkilled).
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Post by yelyab on Jul 7, 2019 22:51:24 GMT
Quick question are we allowed to know how many players are in each bidding group?
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Post by Benjamin on Jul 7, 2019 22:53:35 GMT
Quick question are we allowed to know how many players are in each bidding group? There were 5 players in each bidding group pregame (see the first page rules for further information). Future bidding groups will be as close to even as possible, with a number of items up for bid in that group equal to the number of players in that group.
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Post by jackoclypse on Jul 7, 2019 22:55:18 GMT
Just going to say that if everyone now tried to bid 110 gold mafia would all be caught day 1 (joke) I'd like to issue a reminder that there's a strict rule that you can be modkilled for trying to bid more than you are actually able to bid (or obviously, trying to force others to do so to get them modkilled). Must have missed that one apologies, what if someone says they havent bought an item so you say 'ok use all 100 gold to buy this so you waste all your gold' but actually they lied and have bought an item so dont have 100 gold? Would they just not be able to bid thus tacitly revealing the lie? If so kind of makes my suggestion for how to punish suspicious players illegal
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Post by Benjamin on Jul 7, 2019 23:05:30 GMT
I'd like to issue a reminder that there's a strict rule that you can be modkilled for trying to bid more than you are actually able to bid (or obviously, trying to force others to do so to get them modkilled). Must have missed that one apologies, what if someone says they havent bought an item so you say 'ok use all 100 gold to buy this so you waste all your gold' but actually they lied and have bought an item so dont have 100 gold? Would they just not be able to bid thus tacitly revealing the lie? If so kind of makes my suggestion for how to punish suspicious players illegal Anyone can claim they don't have enough gold to bid an amount and there is no way to prove that they do (outside of possible abilities). If this rule didn't exist and they attempted to bid then it would be obviously a lie anyway as the bidcounter would show how much they actually bid and they couldn't bid more than they had in the first place. You can tell someone to waste all their gold, but you wouldn't know whether they have actually used all their gold unless you already knew how much gold they have. Likewise, you can't prove you only have X gold left without getting modkilled.
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Post by Hectic on Jul 7, 2019 23:08:54 GMT
Greetings, yelyab. It's gonna be hard to read you this game due to your anonymity. Why do you think it's a bad idea to let the 5 agreed most towny members each get an item? If we assume mafia don't play perfectly, and that the majority of town are comprised of competent players, there's going to be less mafia in this top 5 list. Plus, it promotes discussion on who's good/bad, and helps us find mafia based on player interactions and reads lists. Mafia town-reading each other is fine since it'll look suspicious once people start dying and alignments are revealed. Didn't like Jack's early proposal to claim abilities, but now townlean him based on these sneaky ideas for outing mafia.
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Post by jackoclypse on Jul 7, 2019 23:20:08 GMT
If this rule didn't exist and they attempted to bid then it would be obviously a lie anyway as the bidcounter would show how much they actually bid and they couldn't bid more than they had in the first place. You can tell someone to waste all their gold, but you wouldn't know whether they have actually used all their gold unless you already knew how much gold they have. Likewise, you can't prove you only have X gold left without getting modkilled. Ok so actually interrogation via forced spending sounds somewhat workable I take it that means public bids cannot be rescinded then (this is kind of implied in the rules I read but not explicitly stated)?
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Post by Zaiden on Jul 7, 2019 23:21:37 GMT
What Arnie's said makes sense. He's also been making what I consider the biggest contributions to the game so far, particularly in encouraging people away from behaviour that can be exploited by the mafia that others were allowing to go unchallenged. And he also highlighted the likeliest course that mafia would go about doing their business, which helps us prepare against it. As such I'm very happy to read him as town for now. Unvote Arnie
On the other hand, these retaliatory votes on me from Hectic (seemed like an OMGUS) and Pandamonium really don't make sense and aren't very well justified from my perspective.
1. Hectic is calling the random vote a joke. But If I'd be gone for a while, I'd simply inform the forum here and not rashly place down a vote in case a mayor or hated condition causes problems, with me being unable to retract such a vote, especially on D1 of the game. That is absolutely no joke, and I don't get why the criticism for taking this game somewhat seriously.
2. As for the thing I found dodgy about Hectic, it's not a load of hot air I wasn't planning on covering. I'm going with the logic that mafia have more gold than town. Hectic made a joke about bidding 120 gold on the Warwick Mafia Society group on Facebook for an item called the eliminate proof tuxedo, on a post that James made about bidding and stuff. Of course, the item name might be a total joke maybe going over 100 was also supposed to be something of a joke. But at the same time, it's something I'm not willing to overlook as a mere joke on the basis that it could possibly mean something else. I have one more thing to add here for future reference in case it gets pushed far enough.
3. It seems like a load of shit to me that Hectic claimed they'd be busy, yet returned today to continue making a lot of posts despite allegedly being really busy? As far as I can tell, mafia like to trail off in contributions as the game goes on. And Hectic has prepared an excuse far too convenient that would allow him to do exactly as I've described.
If considering 1 and 3, I don't see why Pandamonium would be so quick to trust Hectic over me and accuse my logic of being contradictory. How about let's say I've sensed something which I don't find quite right, but I'm perfectly happy not to totally jump the gun yet? Isn't that par for the course in forum mafia? And how is what Hectic saying making any more sense over what I'm saying or any less contradictory? Yeah, smells like bullshit to me. But it's annoying, because their most recent post seems fairly towny to me. Other than that, I like how Aurimas is contributing especially trying to clarify for people, Jackoclypse has adopted a strong position I disagree with though I can respect it, though I'm cool with the recent response to me I'm kind of surprised Kate isn't digging deeper into this game since I usually consider her to be one of those bastions of logic type of people amid a sea of confusion, and Tom/vj/bayley's contributions have been extremely minimal out of all the players who have posted so far.
@mods, would you be able to confirm whether mafia can kill town to obtain their items and vice versa (eg with a vigilante shot).
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Post by Zaiden on Jul 7, 2019 23:47:37 GMT
In terms of forced spending, the only way I can think of using it is to confirm whether someone's been fabricating their accounts – something I do not think any town would do. As a last resort in desperate times, instead of some standardised strategy.
In a really desperate situation, we can get a highly suspected person who's destined for a eliminate to bid above what they claim to have. If they do not instantly get modkilled, then that would be extremely suspect. If they really were being honest about their account and flipped town, we'd presumably have one more chance to eliminate an actual mafia, which could actually help us (unless mods expressly operate against this kind of play or mafia have some mechanic which allows them to enter debt without negative consequences along the lines of a modkill).
given the cluedo board and card I think there's some kind of cluedo mechanic that is incorporated into the game and that it would be important for town to secure the cluedo board as an item rather than have it vanish into the hands of mafia. Though since all day bids are public, this is under some kind of assumption that they might be able to transfer items between one another or possess a shared inventory.
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Post by pandamonium on Jul 8, 2019 0:29:49 GMT
Please do not post before the game begins. Any questions should do directed towards James. 2. As for the thing I found dodgy about Hectic, it's not a load of hot air I wasn't planning on covering. I'm going with the logic that mafia have more gold than town. Hectic made a joke about bidding 120 gold on the Warwick Mafia Society group on Facebook for an item called the eliminate proof tuxedo, on a post that James made about bidding and stuff. Of course, the item name might be a total joke maybe going over 100 was also supposed to be something of a joke. But at the same time, it's something I'm not willing to overlook as a mere joke on the basis that it could possibly mean something else. I have one more thing to add here for future reference in case it gets pushed far enough.Rebuttal -> This out of game argument is as ridiculous as if I included your pre day one post about not posting before the game begins and saying that's it's contradictory because it in itself is a post before day one. I am not saying that ^ before someone uses the same argument against me that I just used. It was a simile Also I would like to know what the one more thing is you have to add
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Post by Benjamin on Jul 8, 2019 6:29:09 GMT
If this rule didn't exist and they attempted to bid then it would be obviously a lie anyway as the bidcounter would show how much they actually bid and they couldn't bid more than they had in the first place. You can tell someone to waste all their gold, but you wouldn't know whether they have actually used all their gold unless you already knew how much gold they have. Likewise, you can't prove you only have X gold left without getting modkilled. Ok so actually interrogation via forced spending sounds somewhat workable I take it that means public bids cannot be rescinded then (this is kind of implied in the rules I read but not explicitly stated)? It's absolutely allowed to say 'spend all your money or you're getting lynched'. However, it's not generally possible to determine how much money someone holds. Bids cannot be rescinded. If they could then everyone except the winner would just recind them.
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Post by Benjamin on Jul 8, 2019 6:33:22 GMT
Zaiden: we cannot confirm or deny what special abilities may or may not be possessed by any role.
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Post by Benjamin on Jul 8, 2019 6:41:02 GMT
As a last resort in desperate times, instead of some standardised strategy. In a really desperate situation, we can get a highly suspected person who's destined for a eliminate to bid above what they claim to have. If they do not instantly get modkilled, then that would be extremely suspect. If they really were being honest about their account and flipped town, we'd presumably have one more chance to eliminate an actual mafia, which could actually help us As I've already said, this would clearly count as encouraging someone to break the rules which could result in you being modkilled. This is very clearly by definition attempting to abuse modkill mechanics. Also how modills work in general 1- if you get modkilled you individually lose as even if your side wins. 2- if town is modkilled the day would end with a no eliminate (unless the modkill is for activity and clearly not intentional). If mafia get modkilled the day would continue with another opportunity to eliminate. Hence, nobody should ever get themselves voluntarily modkilled.
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Post by kate on Jul 8, 2019 8:08:47 GMT
I can see the logic behind trying to waste all of the mafia gold with day bids, but it seems really counter intuitive to give extra items to people we think are bad. You would also only be able to force one person to bid, so there’s no guarantee that that the others would go along with it, or that the person in question would actually spend all of their gold. The risk of using up too much town gold day one because of mistaken early game reads is also too high for me. It’s much less risky to give cheap items to town reads.
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Post by pandamonium on Jul 8, 2019 8:23:26 GMT
kate what do you think each of the items do?
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Post by kate on Jul 8, 2019 8:40:57 GMT
Fake moustache is probably a framer type ability. Cludo Board probably does something with the Cludo card that was mentioned. Repo Van might allow you to remove someone else’s items Dunces hat and voodoo doll shaped bus I’m not so sure about. I guess the dunces hat could roll block someone? The fact that it’s a voodoo doll shaped bus, and not a bus shaped voodoo doll is strange, but whatever it does it probably involves swapping something.
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Post by Hectic on Jul 8, 2019 9:10:38 GMT
Bidding amongst ourselves benefits mafia a lot more than town. Mafia have more gold so on average run out of it later, and town are the uninformed majority here so will have worse bids. Mafia wants the chaos of us bidding against each other and wasting gold. Zaiden : The whole "This is going to be my last post..." on my first post was clearly a joke, I have no intention to go afk. You also still haven't answered my question: Also, I really don't like the fact you've revealed you didn't make any bids in night 1. Why did you feel the need to reveal that, and why didn't you place any bids? Zaiden's most recent posts have only made me scum-read him harder. I'm trying not to tunnel vision here and look at it objectively, so I'd love to hear other people's opinions on this.
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Post by Hectic on Jul 8, 2019 9:16:40 GMT
kate : The advantage to mafia on revealing bidding groups would be so they can narrow down what townie got what item, which is particularly useful if they're trying to kill someone who got an investigative sounding item. What advantage would revealing grant to town? kate ^ . : I'd like to hear what your biggest scumread and townread so far are please.
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Post by Hectic on Jul 8, 2019 9:21:21 GMT
Other than Zaiden, my other scumlean this game so far is on Arnie. All the questions he asked at the start looked like someone trying to show how useful he is to the town. ArnieDelsey : Why didn't you ask James/Ben these questions before the game started, like I assume a lot of us did? I also didn't like his reasoning for putting a bid down in this post: Seeing as there's already a bet on the first item (unless you can revoke your bets) and the fact that I want to contribute this game: Lets get a bid up for item number 2! Bid 1 on Cluedo Board.
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Post by kate on Jul 8, 2019 9:31:25 GMT
The advantage is that knowing what sort of items are in the game might help us figure out what the day bid items are. For example knowing there is a Cludo card in the game changes what we think the Cludo board might do, and knowing there is a Voodoo doll shaped bus is pretty important if it is actually a one shot bus driving ability.
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Post by yelyab on Jul 8, 2019 9:32:08 GMT
Greetings, yelyab. It's gonna be hard to read you this game due to your anonymity. Why do you think it's a bad idea to let the 5 agreed most towny members each get an item? If we assume mafia don't play perfectly, and that the majority of town are comprised of competent players, there's going to be less mafia in this top 5 list. Plus, it promotes discussion on who's good/bad, and helps us find mafia based on player interactions and reads lists. Mafia town-reading each other is fine since it'll look suspicious once people start dying and alignments are revealed. Didn't like Jack's early proposal to claim abilities, but now townlean him based on these sneaky ideas for outing mafia. I agree that if we have a good enough read and consensus from everyone that this would work however I think at the start of the game this would be hard to do as there has t been a lot to go off of yet if you were suggesting doing this today?
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