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Post by yelyab on Jul 8, 2019 12:47:56 GMT
Might have to considering the rock paper scissors tournament hasn't begun yet.
We need some time to work out whether we're doing trivial duels on the honor system, or using non-googleable facts about James' childhood.
So what you’re saying is there is a trivial dueller 😎
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Post by elunedj on Jul 8, 2019 13:07:51 GMT
Helllloo everyone, Very late contribution as busy weekend & took me a while to read through everything My thoughts; roles probably revolve around items & gold, Zaiden is confusing for not placing bids in N1, Ketchup - some v. bad ideas but someone could be looking for condiments/fake blood?, Will - death speech and/or passing on items/money to chosen person, Buyer’s remorse - refunded or punitive item, idk if it’s play style but I don’t typically think that whoever accuses me is bad I’d get defensive but the “have all but confirmed to me that you’re scum” is confusing I guess the “other point I will keep under wraps for now” may be the reason..? Hectic: “Suspicious placement of the j, expected it to be somewhere closer to the middle.” ^If I discovered how to make a superscript j then my name would be correct but unfortunately not :’( Suspicious number of ‘l’s in hello 🤔 shhh 🤫 Also no matter how many 5ps I donate/bribe with I'll never get a day vig shot 😂
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Post by prometheus on Jul 8, 2019 13:21:15 GMT
Hi all, on my break. Sorry Im late to the party. Did briefly read a little last night and skimmed the rest today? It's quite interesting how everyone thinks. I would have been against revealing groups and roles as that gives mafia and any sort of third party roles more information that they may not have or given them more to work off on. I know how I would have bid as mafia, but I won't disclose now whether it's the same or different to how I had bid last night pregame. I think I have met all of you now or almost everyone. It's interesting the on and off relationship Zaiden and Hectic are having in game. Jack had an interesting idea even if he initially said as a joke. Rules are in place so that we can't do that, which does suggest at least one mafia/third party has started with more than 100 gold. Although 1 or 2 town could have as well. Zaiden does make a good point that mafia could have some gold income of sorts as there is likely 3/4 mafia against 11/12 other players. The only townread I have at the moment is Arnie, as he has appeared town this game with everything he said, ranging from being wary of suggestions to give items to the most townliest members. He seems to be reading things carefully when he recorrected Ben. Then he goes on to bid 1 gold on an item, probably already knowing that the minimum bid was 10 gold, and he was just fishing for reactions. ArnieDelsey: Let me know if I'm giving you too much credit here or not enough 😋 All in all, I think Arnie is a good D1 townread. And I made a mistake when I was also town last game and got him lynched D1. I still think he is relatively easy to figure out as mafia the longer he stays alive for as he more likely than not, reveals himself as mafia with some outlandish play. I'm unsure on Kate, but it's clear like most people, she's fishing for more info that would help her. Aurimas, Jack, Pandemonium seem to be also making good ideas or observations of the game, and what items are likely to do. I'm liking Pandemonium a bit more than others 😉 I will try to be semi active in the next couple of days to participate properly in the discussion before I get lost in what's already been said.
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Post by Hectic on Jul 8, 2019 13:48:23 GMT
yelyab : Oh no, I'm getting PTSD from the Meme Mafia game we played. Okay first post from Prometheus, null read for me. Question for him: How would you have bid as mafia? kate : I'd like to hear any reads you have. After looking at Zaiden's playstyle as town and scum from previous games, my read on him has moved from scum to null. I'm going to be busy for a while so I'll explain all the reasons why later. Unvote Zaiden.Vote Kate.
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Post by yelyab on Jul 8, 2019 14:17:18 GMT
yelyab : Oh no, I'm getting PTSD from the Meme Mafia game we played. Okay first post from Prometheus, null read for me. Question for him: How would you have bid as mafia? kate : I'd like to hear any reads you have. After looking at Zaiden's playstyle as town and scum from previous games, my read on him has moved from scum to null. I'm going to be busy for a while so I'll explain all the reasons why later. Unvote Zaiden.Vote Kate. Don’t you mean PTMD?
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Post by yelyab on Jul 8, 2019 14:17:50 GMT
Suspicious number of ‘l’s in hello 🤔 shhh 🤫 Also no matter how many 5ps I donate/bribe with I'll never get a day vig shot 😂 We’ll have to see 😂
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Post by yelyab on Jul 8, 2019 14:20:25 GMT
Hi all, on my break. Sorry Im late to the party. Did briefly read a little last night and skimmed the rest today? It's quite interesting how everyone thinks. I would have been against revealing groups and roles as that gives mafia and any sort of third party roles more information that they may not have or given them more to work off on. I know how I would have bid as mafia, but I won't disclose now whether it's the same or different to how I had bid last night pregame. I think I have met all of you now or almost everyone. It's interesting the on and off relationship Zaiden and Hectic are having in game. Jack had an interesting idea even if he initially said as a joke. Rules are in place so that we can't do that, which does suggest at least one mafia/third party has started with more than 100 gold. Although 1 or 2 town could have as well. Zaiden does make a good point that mafia could have some gold income of sorts as there is likely 3/4 mafia against 11/12 other players. The only townread I have at the moment is Arnie, as he has appeared town this game with everything he said, ranging from being wary of suggestions to give items to the most townliest members. He seems to be reading things carefully when he recorrected Ben. Then he goes on to bid 1 gold on an item, probably already knowing that the minimum bid was 10 gold, and he was just fishing for reactions. ArnieDelsey: Let me know if I'm giving you too much credit here or not enough 😋 All in all, I think Arnie is a good D1 townread. And I made a mistake when I was also town last game and got him lynched D1. I still think he is relatively easy to figure out as mafia the longer he stays alive for as he more likely than not, reveals himself as mafia with some outlandish play. I'm unsure on Kate, but it's clear like most people, she's fishing for more info that would help her. Aurimas, Jack, Pandemonium seem to be also making good ideas or observations of the game, and what items are likely to do. I'm liking Pandemonium a bit more than others 😉 I will try to be semi active in the next couple of days to participate properly in the discussion before I get lost in what's already been said. I think you bring up a good point I hadn’t considered that a town role could also have started with more gold than 100. I also agree that Annie has played very townie so far for me.
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Post by prometheus on Jul 8, 2019 14:27:31 GMT
Hectic: Good thing you null read me. It would have been out of character to town lean or scum lean me at this time. I would tell you how I would bid as scum on D2 although it probably be similar to how you yourself would bid as scum. It's a cop out answer but I would like you to try and figure out what scum would think like. Also consider who's been against and for role claiming and bidding group claiming and also item group claiming? I'm against all 3 because it does give too much info to mafia on D1 as we don't actually know how mafia got distributed, for all we know they all could have ended up in the same group. Zaiden: It's also quite a bit provocative to claim not to have bid on any items as that gives information away to mafia even if you are bluffing/lying.
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Post by prometheus on Jul 8, 2019 14:30:14 GMT
Fine, since it was highly requested; here are the most useful tells for finding mafia I have in my arsenal: -Mafia love to reinforce town reads on the strongest towns, while attacking nuetrally read players. -Mafia do not place the first or last vote on an eventual lynchee. -Mafia are less comfortable with making eye contact. -Mafia NEVER post haikus. -And finally, mafia are more delicate with their key presses; look out for this one especially. I agree on you more on the first and last points XoX
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Post by kate on Jul 8, 2019 15:44:28 GMT
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with just trying to collect information early game, and I think everything I’ve suggested has been in the towns best interests. I’ve been paying attention to who I think is mafia, but deliberately wasn’t posting it because I got too tunnel visioned on a few people last game, and it’s still early. Here’s what I think so far anyway though.
Zaiden: I don’t think he’s that bad. I can see why you might not want to bid night one, although revealing it was definitely a bad idea. He did seem a bit defensive, but then quite a few people were scum reading him so it’s justified. Neutral overall. Yelyab: Seems to be helping out and joining in with discussion. Slightly town. Aurimas: Same as above Hectic: Has been helping, everything he’s posted so far seems to be useful. Probably town. Jackoclypse: Suggested that Mafia should be the ones to bid on the items today, which I really don’t like. It’s only day 1 though, but for now, slightly mafia. Vj: Playing the same as last game, and therefore slightly town.
I have no opinions about anyone else yet.
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Post by Hectic on Jul 8, 2019 16:54:08 GMT
kate : It's a lot easier for mafia to try and appear town by discussing the game setup, rather than discussing reads and player interactions. This is because mafia knows everyone else is town, so it's a lot harder for them to come up with reasons for people being scum. Having looked back at the previous game where you were town, I noticed you were a lot more willing to attack people early on and discuss possible eliminate candidates. This game, you haven't done any of that in the early stages which is what rubs me the wrong way. I mostly like your reads list, but I'll leave my vote on for the other reasons I've stated. prometheus : I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing how we think mafia would bid, they've probably discussed it thoroughly in their chat, so we're unlikely to give them any good ideas. I think they'd be more likely to focus on a few items rather then spread their bids out, especially since there could be multiple mafia in the same group. If they had a mafia in all 3 groups, they would notice there's cluedo related item in each group (if that is the case), and might try to collect all 3 with high bids.
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Post by Hectic on Jul 8, 2019 16:58:34 GMT
Look, I realise I could've given him a choice, but I thought it'd make more sense to give him both and force the liberal through. I know Alex likes having the check so it works out.
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Post by Hectic on Jul 8, 2019 17:26:10 GMT
Why Zaiden is town: -Claiming he made no night bids is a bad play, but does not make him scum. Claiming that as scum, especially after the warning I posted is nonsensical and is painting a target on your back. It's a bad play that town is far more likely to make. -As scum, he is more friendly and less confrontational at the start of the game. This game, he started out with accusations. -He is usually defensive but especially so and essay-y as scum. In his only scum game, he made this beautiful post in response to relatively minor accusations. He hasn't done anything like as of yet this game. Null: -His attacks on me have been poor but he is very reactionary as both scum and town. In a previous game, he had a several page argument with Ben where both were town. -I can see Zaiden not registering my joke on post 1 and taking it too seriously. -He appeals to emotions as both town and scum. Why Zaiden is scum: -His evasion of my question about his lack of night bids for so long. The fact he failed to answer it for so long tells me he knew it was a bad play and wanted everyone to forget about it. -Him saying I'm all but confirmed scum to him by this point is very OMGUS-y.Overall, a very minor town read at the moment.
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Post by kate on Jul 8, 2019 17:30:56 GMT
Having looked back at the previous game where you were town, I noticed you were a lot more willing to attack people early on and discuss possible eliminate candidates. This game, you haven't done any of that in the early stages which is what rubs me the wrong way. Like I said, this is deliberate. Right up until the end of that game I was convinced that Jackoclypse was town and Vj wasn’t, because of bad reads that I got set in too early on. I also lost that game, and it was 8 months ago, so I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable that I would have changed my play style in accordance with that. I take your point about how Mafia would play early game, so this probably wasn’t the best way of approaching it form a looking-town perspective. As far as eliminate candidates go, my favourite at the moment is Jackoclypse because he’s the only person I think is suspicious, but we haven’t even heard from everybody yet so I think it’s a bit early to be having that discussion.
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Post by pandamonium on Jul 8, 2019 17:42:55 GMT
Other than Zaiden, my other scumlean this game so far is on Arnie. All the questions he asked at the start looked like someone trying to show how useful he is to the town. ArnieDelsey : Why didn't you ask James/Ben these questions before the game started, like I assume a lot of us did? I also didn't like his reasoning for putting a bid down in this post: Seeing as there's already a bet on the first item (unless you can revoke your bets) and the fact that I want to contribute this game: Lets get a bid up for item number 2! Bid 1 on Cluedo Board.
I quite like Arnie this game. My memories of him last game make me think these questions are town-like play from him. Fine, since it was highly requested; here are the most useful tells for finding mafia I have in my arsenal: -Mafia love to reinforce town reads on the strongest towns, while attacking nuetrally read players. -Mafia do not place the first or last vote on an eventual lynchee. -Mafia are less comfortable with making eye contact. -Mafia NEVER post haikus.-And finally, mafia are more delicate with their key presses; look out for this one especially. Please post a haiku If you are a maf member, I would like to know I’ve had another thought on bidding groups. It gets randomised every night according to the mods. Mafia will be able to communicate and speculate on every item that’s appeared in the game, while the average townie is only going to be aware of whatever they see within their specific bidding group. Do we really want to be withholding so much information if they can share information and get a leg up that way regardless of what we do? Especially since the bidding groups don’t remain static and get redone every night, so it’s not a case of killing off other people in the group to monopolise items within a pool. The only issue with this is that they might target a particular person who holds an item they want, need or consider dangerous to their efforts. I’m pretty happy to step forwards and reveal the items in my bidding group, since I didn’t go for any of them, and I feel it would be extremely useful for town to know that they exist in the game. I'm fully on board with this idea, whichever way you look at it mafia only get a max of 3 people's night 1 bidding groups extra information over the town. This seems like hardly anything as a trade off. The way I think this should work is people unexpectedly posting their bidding group items without any form of warning. Mafia faking a bidding group item set is basically suicide so that's not going to happen. That said here are my group items: Cluedo Card: Place Mortuary Key Axe Katana Bang the Dice Game @mods, if two equal bids are attained at the day’s end, does the randomisation take place for all of us to see or is it resolved out of sight? Also, I’m not liking Hectic’s playstyle this game. I’ve not seen a lot of memes or activity from them in the past 6-7 games, so this sudden spike has me on alert. For all I know, he could be mafia trying to establish himself as an active town. And for him to so easily dismiss my points as ‘I was just joking’ rather than recognising the potential validity of the concern behind them. Do you see how much of a farce this can be? He can literally say any stupid shit is a joke that’s clearly problematic and deserves scrutiny, and somehow people will lap it up as if it’s a valid excuse?!?
Aurimas and Pandamonium are agreeing with him without seeing any kind of problem with anything he’s said. Fundamentally, I see absolutely no reason why they should be freely agreeing and defending him wholesale this early on in the game, without even acknowledging the problematic things that have been said. I believe at least one of these three has to be scummy if not scum, and I’m strongly leaning towards Hectic. What part of "the j is in a suspicious position" doesn't seem like a joke? Unless you're accusing Hectic of cheating, the sam goes for his fb comment. I could not name a benefit for not buying items. But I can’t think of many positives when we know so little at this point in time. For the most part, I was being cautious N1. But I thought that much should be obvious.Which is what everyone thought about Hectic's initial vote and his comment on the fb page being a joke. Because we need information to work off. I’m happy to put out something I personally consider negligible like that, and to see how other people react. You dominating the discourse, setting the tone and painting me out to be bad have all but confirmed to me that you’re scum, in addition to the other point I will keep under wraps for now.
STOP THIS!!! Just say what it is! If anyone would prefer this ambiguous "I'm gonna say stuff...just not yet" please tell me I'm wrong; I just think this is causing unnecessary ambiguity .
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Post by pandamonium on Jul 8, 2019 17:43:33 GMT
idk how to do spoilers nor could figure it out so didn't bother, apologies
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Post by Hectic on Jul 8, 2019 17:53:23 GMT
Another thing about Zaiden: Mafia want to tactically bid on night 0 to get items, and him claiming he's made no bids makes it harder for him to claim his gold total and number of items later on if he is mafia. kate : You've slightly convinced me with your most recent post, I'm still dubious, but less so now. Also, it's true we need to hear a lot more from everyone else before deciding on a eliminate, but discussing this early is still useful for developing reads. Mastermind... Centralist? Probably not. I'll vote Aurimas since he's been online pretty constantly but hasn't said anything for a while. I know this is in your character, but you always have to be wary of tactical lurking. Also, still waiting on answer to that question I asked you. Vote Aurimas.
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Post by prometheus on Jul 8, 2019 18:01:21 GMT
kate: Apologies if it sounded like an attack/dig. I think there's nothing wrong with trying to get more information, as I do it sometimes as town. Hectic: It's just regarding bidding mechanics. If you bid on everything, you'll know what got bought by others. Although most people might have done that already regardless of alignment. I feel like people pushing to know bidding groups have done this. Hence why I didn't like the idea of revealing roles, bidding groups, or items group. I feel like others have already hinted this already with the way they posted. I can give a list of people who I think either used this method or know about it.
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Post by Hectic on Jul 8, 2019 18:04:46 GMT
pandamonium: I agree with your points on Zaiden, but I'm now getting the impression he's more difficult town rather than scum. Honestly, my gut is still screaming scum, but logically speaking, this makes more sense. I remember a previous game with Arnie where he asked the mod about the number of mafia not being specified, while it was stated in the rules. This got him free town points by many people for a lot of the game. He didn't ask any questions publicly, early on, in the last game where he was town, though I suppose there was a lot less to ask about. Also, thanks for confirming yourself as town, give me a few days to prepare an adequate haiku.
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Post by Hectic on Jul 8, 2019 18:06:29 GMT
I remember a previous game with Arnie where he asked the mod about the number of mafia not being specified, while it was stated in the rules. This got him free town points by many people for a lot of the game. He didn't ask any questions publicly, early on, in the last game where he was town, though I suppose there was a lot less to ask about. To clarify; Arnie was scum in this game.
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ArnieDelsey
Dreaming God
Dont let my avatar fool you, I'm actually mafia.
Posts: 639
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Post by ArnieDelsey on Jul 8, 2019 18:15:49 GMT
^In my defence to that game, that was a genuine accidental overlook at the game rules that happened to work in my favour XD
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ArnieDelsey
Dreaming God
Dont let my avatar fool you, I'm actually mafia.
Posts: 639
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Post by ArnieDelsey on Jul 8, 2019 18:34:31 GMT
Been at work, just got back after reading everything said since this morning. I have a VERY strong preference for revealing the bid items. This will make town at least on par with mafia with knowing what’s out there come night 1. I’d say mafia will undoubtedly push for winning items pregame in order to maximise their potential early on, especially when it’s anonymous procurement.
Personally, I think each mafia has 120/125 starting gold, 3 mafia total and every single player has a base role that is not uniquely associated with a certain faction.
There will be town who start on more money, town who can make more money, town who can steal items, as much as there might be mafia who can lookout, heal, neighborise.
I think the items themselves may lend themselves to both bad and good aligned abilities. The issue with mafia is they indeed have limited resources as a whole and a day auction where you can lose money is so much more detrimental to them as they rely on getting 3 items.
Personally, I say free market on day auctions and let the bidding strategies be open for analysis.
I very strongly believe that pandemonium won the auction for his groups cluedo card and is trying to collect those type of items (maybe having themed cards gets a bonus? he is third party item collector?), either way revealing that each bidding group might have a cluedo card speaks to me that he is third party, mafia or won his group’s cluedo card and requires/wants another one.
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ArnieDelsey
Dreaming God
Dont let my avatar fool you, I'm actually mafia.
Posts: 639
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Post by ArnieDelsey on Jul 8, 2019 18:37:26 GMT
As I didn’t see my group items yet, here they are: Cluedo Card: Murder Weapon Your own private detective Yellow house in the ghettos Gavel Body suit full of syringes
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ArnieDelsey
Dreaming God
Dont let my avatar fool you, I'm actually mafia.
Posts: 639
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Post by ArnieDelsey on Jul 8, 2019 18:40:37 GMT
To reply to hectic way back, I asked the questions to mods early on because I was hypothesising ways to exploit the auctions and alternative strategies and thought it useful for others to know the answers to those questions as well as to stimulate that sort of alternative thinking.
Plus just finding out answers for myself is definitely selfish if they are of that calibre of potential exploit.
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Post by Zaiden on Jul 8, 2019 18:44:12 GMT
Pandamonium, outside of your item group claim you’ve just been heabily deliberately targeting me for no good reason this whole game now. You practically went along with my personally conceived idea wholeheartedly and still go ham on me without being willing to give me any credit. Do you live to stir up shit?
In retrospect, Hectic might not be bad. He chose to look at things holistically (finally), and I approve that he weighed both sides of it. I’ll reveal why I have gripes with Hectic tomorrow, but it will require me to re-evaluate the potential setup behind this game.
If town have a combined 1200 gold to work with, I doubt mafia would only have 300 gold to go about business. 1200 vs 300 is not a gap that can be bridged without significant balancing by the mods. From my perspective, it makes sense that they start off with more gold. Maybe an amount above 100, the ability to steal an arbitrary amount of gold/receive a daily stipend from the mods. For that reason, I’d take issue with anyone who might have the likelihood of having more than 100 gold without an item or town ability that would allow them to reach that amount.
A final possibility I’d like to raise is that eliminating a mafia member could make it so that an entire group of items will only be available to non-mafia. Though third party interests could certainly be present in this game. In which case, how much gold would a third party start off with and how would they be balanced in this setup?
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ArnieDelsey
Dreaming God
Dont let my avatar fool you, I'm actually mafia.
Posts: 639
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Post by ArnieDelsey on Jul 8, 2019 18:45:51 GMT
If I see pandemonium bid the cluedo board, I will be more suspicious of him.
At the moment I have no real leans beyond him. People are trying to bash hectic around but I can empathise with his style of play, so personally think nothing of it. Zaiden is always hard to read imo, and will mainly see his bids as a means of analysis. Him claiming he didn’t bid anything pregame I think is legit, but as for why (both the claim and strategy) strikes me as odd. Seems like he has an ability that can’t make more money, but beyond that I need more bidding results from him to gauge more.
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Post by pandamonium on Jul 8, 2019 18:51:41 GMT
If I see pandemonium bid the cluedo board, I will be more suspicious of him. In what way?
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Post by pandamonium on Jul 8, 2019 18:54:20 GMT
Pandamonium, outside of your item group claim you’ve just been heabily deliberately targeting me for no good reason this whole game now. You practically went along with my personally conceived idea wholeheartedly and still go ham on me without being willing to give me any credit. Do you live to stir up shit This is partially paranoia from last game when you practically ran the whole of the first day as mafia. I want to keep a lid on you so you don't get out of control.
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Post by Zaiden on Jul 8, 2019 18:57:08 GMT
Thinking about it, perhaps I can justify my lack of spending on N1 by tying it with my real life spending habits.
I don’t tend to spend money at random in real life? I really like to do proper research and know what I’m getting myself into, and I’m happy to spend on a quality acquisition. Not knowing what the items do for sure, outside of the ones which obviously seem related to killing, definitely discouraged me. But I’m thinking of bidding today so that I can get an item, and figure out how they’ve been implemented into the setup.
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Post by Zaiden on Jul 8, 2019 18:58:50 GMT
Now that you’ve explained it, I totally understand your reason, Pandamonium. Explanation accepted (for now).
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